E8: Kelly Evans

Richard Hill [00:00:07]:
Welcome to episode 8 of Agency Intensive. I'm Richard Hill, your host. Now in this episode, I speak with Kelly Evans, Chief Executive of social change, a local agency to me that I've admired for many years, and I knew I had to get Kelly on the show. We chat niching down and finding your passion and the biggest shift in human behavior that Kelly is seriously leaning into right now. As one of the first b corps in the UK agency space, Kelly steps us through the process and how it impacted the agency. Why Kelly sleeps pretty well at night? This you need to listen to. We go deep on utilization rates and how this was a real turning point for Kelly and we check the mystical 100 k per head, the magic number in agency land and how does Kelly achieve it and so much more in this one. Now do me one favor, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast.

Richard Hill [00:00:56]:
You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hey. How are you doing?

Kelly Evans [00:01:06]:
Hi. I'm good. Thanks. How are you?

Richard Hill [00:01:08]:
I'm really well. I'm really well. Well, I hope you haven't had too much of a long journey to get here.

Kelly Evans [00:01:13]:
No. Very, very short.

Richard Hill [00:01:15]:
So Kelly's, agency is literally around the corner from us. Isn't it? Pretty much, I think. I think

Kelly Evans [00:01:20]:
we're kind of on the same street.

Richard Hill [00:01:21]:
Yep. Yeah. So I would say you're probably out of the 210 people we've had on our 2 podcasts, you are definitely the person that is the nearest. Yeah. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Welcome to Agency Intensive. Before we get into the nitty gritty of Agency Live, I think it'd be great for you to introduce yourself and tell the listeners how you got into the world of agencies.

Kelly Evans [00:01:42]:
Yeah. So my name's Kelly Evans, and I run an agency called Social Change. It's a behavior change agency which when you say that to people, they say, well, what is that?

Richard Hill [00:01:52]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:01:52]:
And, basically, we're an agency that help our clients to influence human behavior. Pretty much everything we do is about human behavior. So how can we influence it? How can we change it? So we help them solve their problems and their challenges using the power of behavioral science.

Richard Hill [00:02:09]:
So I would say very unique. Very unique. Very unique. Very niche, which I love. So so why behavioral science?

Kelly Evans [00:02:17]:
Well, it goes back a long time. I started the agency 14 years ago, but before that, I was inside a government, and I was one of only a sort of few people that was testing, and looking at how we could use behavioral theory and behavioral science to basically get people to eat more healthy, pay their taxes, and do all the right things. So, yeah, I started in inside of government And then in 2010, the recession hit. I don't know if you're as old as me but I

Richard Hill [00:02:48]:
remember it very well, unfortunately. Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:02:51]:
And, I was made redundant and I thought, wow. What do I do now? And, it behavioral science was something that was just really starting to take off. Mhmm. And there was so few people doing it that I thought, I'm gonna give this a try, and I'm gonna set up my own kind of agency consultancy. Yep. And that's what I did.

Richard Hill [00:03:12]:
So how did you get that first first client or 2 then? So you've you've literally full time employment. Yeah. Obviously, recession. A lot of challenges out there with with government and funding and and, obviously, everything. You know? Yeah. So I went, right. I'm gonna do my own thing, which is a big decision to make. You know, how did you get those first sort of customer or 2 in that 1st year or so?

Kelly Evans [00:03:32]:
Yeah. Well, that's the thing about government. They all sack lots of people, and then they'll work out that they still need the work doing.

Richard Hill [00:03:38]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:03:38]:
So they start contracting and commissioning people. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:03:41]:
And pay more for it.

Kelly Evans [00:03:43]:
So, I kind of really commissioned myself back into government and the public sector. Yeah. And, again, because we there were so few of us doing it. They still needed that expertise, and we were really starting to show some benefits of using behavioral science on lots of different societal problems that pretty much, you know, people were knocking on the door. It was Mhmm. It was great for me.

Richard Hill [00:04:04]:
It's quite a unique offering at that time. Still is, I would say.

Kelly Evans [00:04:08]:
I would say it's still a unique offering. We are definitely one of the leading behavior change agencies in the UK now. There are a few more out there, and behavioral science is increasingly being used, more and more, than ever before. So, yeah, it's a field that's really expanding, and people's knowledge of it is is increasing.

Richard Hill [00:04:28]:
So for the agency owners that are listening, they're probably wondering what exactly is it you do. You know? So we're obviously working with companies. Obviously, you talk about the the council and the government or the the government. But what are some sort of typical projects that you'll work on now?

Kelly Evans [00:04:45]:
Yeah. So, we work in the health related behavior change space. So we would work with the NHS, for example. Their problem is they can't get people to do screening for cancer, for diabetes. Yep. So we would look at that problem. We would really analyze it. We have a team of behavioral scientists and researchers who would look at what are the barriers and we would basically create and test interventions to get people to the screening.

Richard Hill [00:05:11]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:05:11]:
So that could be a campaign, it could be service redesign, anything like that. We're working with a major high street bank at the moment. Fraud is massive. People are being scammed. Yeah. How do we reduce scams? So we're looking at all of these problems that, you know, businesses and the public sector have and how behavioral science can solve some of those problems.

Richard Hill [00:05:33]:
So is it a is it a lot about making people aware of these issues, if you like? Or, like, you you mentioned a couple of things there about being scammed, about different health things. So it's you you doing research for your clients or more so doing campaigns to make people more aware that they should be more careful about getting scammed? They should be going to the doctors to be checked for this, that, or the other, or is it it's a bit of both?

Kelly Evans [00:05:58]:
It's a bit of both. Yeah. So it always starts with understanding people. And, actually, I

Richard Hill [00:06:03]:
think a lot of

Kelly Evans [00:06:03]:
people jump to the idea, the intervention, the creative Yeah. Without fully understanding people Yeah. And what the issue is. So we have a

Richard Hill [00:06:08]:
small team

Kelly Evans [00:06:08]:
of researchers and scientists that would look

Richard Hill [00:06:11]:
at that

Kelly Evans [00:06:17]:
and then we would use those insights to create the ideas,

Richard Hill [00:06:21]:
be

Kelly Evans [00:06:21]:
creative and sometimes it's a campaign and we use our marketing expertise to do that. So we've done a lot of TV ads or, you know, public sector awareness campaigns. But sometimes it is about changing the service. You know, if, you know, we're struggling to get people to the dentist, we don't sometimes need more adverts to tell us to go to the dentist every 6 months. Maybe we just need to, change the receptionist who's a bit of a moody person who stops you wanting to go to the dentist when you go in.

Richard Hill [00:06:54]:
That's very polite. Moody person. Moody person.

Kelly Evans [00:06:58]:
So, yeah, some sometimes it's about, you know, more than just the campaign. Yeah. And we apply a test, learn, adapt approach. So we're constantly testing things. And you'll know in your world as well, you know, AB split testing, you know, what message is gonna work, what colors work better, that kind of thing. So we're doing all of that on a sort of day to day basis.

Richard Hill [00:07:20]:
So what would you say is the biggest shift you're seeing at the moment with sort of human behavior? You know, what are you witnessing now?

Kelly Evans [00:07:27]:
It's a good question, actually. I think we're constantly evolving, but COVID was a moment in time that I think did shift behavior, but at the same time, it also didn't. So I I remember doing a webinar at the start of the COVID pandemic and I basically told everyone, don't worry, everybody, because we will all revert back to our old habits and our behaviors. And we pretty much did. So as individuals, we did. There was one change that I've definitely seen since then and that is that our approach and our attitude to work, and that's what's really shifted. Yeah. But if you think about it, the COVID pandemic was a wake up call for all of us around our health and our well-being.

Richard Hill [00:08:12]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:08:12]:
Yet what is now where we are now, there is no change. In fact, if anything, our health and well-being is getting worse since the pandemic. So, you know, there's all sorts of shifts happening, but, actually, largely, we are the same as what we were before the pandemic

Richard Hill [00:08:30]:
that we

Kelly Evans [00:08:31]:
are now.

Richard Hill [00:08:31]:
Yeah. So did you have you done a lot around sort of, you know, know, obviously, there's been quite a shift in in where we work? You know, we talked about it before we before we hit hit record. If you've done work around that, then sort of you know, I think, obviously, everyone worked from home, then we sort of eased back some firms eased back to the office, and then last couple of years, more and more easing back to the office. But Yeah. You know, then some firms like, right. We're going back full time 5 days a week to the office. And I think, oh, I don't think that's ever gonna be a thing anymore. Are you are you sort of seeing any what are you seeing on that side of things?

Kelly Evans [00:09:03]:
Yeah. I think now that we're a few years down the road, and as someone who comes from the research area, I've looked at this and my team have looked at this both for our clients, but also kinda reflecting on our own experience of running an agency. And one thing that's really sort of come out in the studies is that actually working fully remote from home is actually not very good for our mental health Yep. And also our physical health unless you're a highly motivated individual in terms of looking after your health and well-being. So a fully remote environment is actually not great, particularly for younger generations. Yeah. You know? They need to be around people. They need to learn from other people around them.

Kelly Evans [00:09:46]:
They need to be in that social environment.

Richard Hill [00:09:48]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:09:48]:
And all of the studies say that now and I I I've seen that in my own team as well. Yeah. You know, I gave them the option like everyone else, I think. You know, would you like to work fully remote? And most of them didn't. And it, you know, it it surprised me at the time.

Richard Hill [00:10:03]:
Surprised me as well. Well, yeah. I've had people, oh, I wanna come in more. It's like, okay. You can come in more if you wanna come in more. So it's like an open door policy here, you know, which I think you've got a similar Yeah. Similar similar vibe. Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:10:15]:
A hybrid sort of model Yeah. Does seem to be the one that's working the most.

Richard Hill [00:10:19]:
Some people wanna do a couple of days. Some people wanna do 5. Some wanna do 4. Some wanna do 3. Couple of days or 3 where, you know, it's maybe more of a given that more people are in, so there's more collaboration on those days. And, yeah, I think it's I could never work from home every day. No. Although I love having that odd day.

Richard Hill [00:10:36]:
Absolutely. That quiet time, but I've been out been at home all the time. Yeah. I love being in the office to be fair. Yeah. Yeah. Slight change of direction then, Kelly. So we're gonna talk about b corp.

Richard Hill [00:10:47]:
Now I

Kelly Evans [00:10:47]:
know Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:10:49]:
You were, I believe, the first in Lincolnshire. I'm one of the first in the country, I think, to to go through the b corp process. You know, sort of step us through that process. I think a lot, you know, a lot of agent agencies you see becoming b corps for different reasons. Mhmm. And I think, you know, it's quite probably potentially, you know, if you've not looked at it, obviously, it's quite potentially an overwhelming process. You know, maybe step us through that process of becoming a b corp, why you decided to do that, and and the and the process.

Kelly Evans [00:11:19]:
Yeah. Of course. So, yeah, b corp is something I am very passionate about. We certified nearly 3 years ago. We were, as you said, the first in Lincoln, and we were in the first 500 companies in the UK. And I think now we're up to 3,000 and there are about a1000000 businesses going through the process at the moment. So this is a real growing movement. And, you know, for those who haven't heard of B Corp before, it's about balancing people, planet, and profit and considering all of those in equal measure.

Kelly Evans [00:11:52]:
And as a business, when I set it up, when I came out of government and I set the business up, I probably did what a lot of people do and that is go for the business books, go on to Amazon, you know, buy 10 business books. But most of them were very much about how to get rich quick, how to make, you know, a million overnight. Yeah. Yeah. You know? It's all about making money. And I guess if that is your motivator, fine, but it wasn't mine.

Richard Hill [00:12:16]:
Yeah. You

Kelly Evans [00:12:16]:
know? We'd just come out of this awful recession or still going through it, actually, you know, where that pursuit of profit at all costs

Richard Hill [00:12:24]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:12:25]:
Literally led to our economic downturn. Yeah. So I thought there must be a better way of doing this. So I started seeking out different books, different business models, different ways to do business And although it wasn't called B Corp at the time, pretty much people had been running Yeah. Good socially, economic, responsible businesses for some time and it

Richard Hill [00:12:46]:
was Caring about all they're doing with their people and the environment.

Kelly Evans [00:12:49]:
Yeah. You know, I grew up in Brighton, and, Anita Roddock, who, obviously, everyone knows from The Body Shop, had her big business down in Littlehampton just outside. And as a 15 year old, I would go down to The Body Shop and see the business, how it was run. And Wow. I was always inspired Yeah. By her. Yeah. And The First Body Shop was in Brighton.

Kelly Evans [00:13:11]:
So I always had that idea that business could be done differently, and I wanted to do it differently.

Richard Hill [00:13:16]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:13:17]:
So, yeah, I sought out to do business that way. And a few years later, I looked at B Corp and I was like, oh, we're doing all of that. You know? Do we actually need the badge?

Richard Hill [00:13:28]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:13:29]:
And then it got to the COVID pandemic and I'm in my bedroom for 20 hours a day.

Richard Hill [00:13:34]:
A bit of time.

Kelly Evans [00:13:35]:
A bit of time on my hands and I thought, you know, let's let's go for this. And actually, it was a really good thing because Yeah. There's me thinking I'm doing all the right things. Yeah. This was an opportunity to hold a mirror up to the business and say, am I doing all the right things? And, you know, there were a few things that came up when I was like, oh, maybe I could do more of that or I'm not gonna

Richard Hill [00:13:56]:
be so good in

Kelly Evans [00:13:57]:
that area. Yeah. Yeah. It makes you really sort of think about it.

Richard Hill [00:14:01]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:14:01]:
But because, as I said, we were doing already good things and the work that we do is naturally good.

Richard Hill [00:14:08]:
Yeah. Because it really aligns with the work that you're doing, doesn't it? Obviously, you're, you know, investigating and researching and helping and developing maybe change ultimately on and virtues rather than doing the right thing and educating people about doing things that are gonna help them, which really sits well with a bit. So it really aligns, doesn't it, with what your agencies specifically?

Kelly Evans [00:14:30]:
Yeah. It does. And the work that we were doing really good, and I really wanted to look at how, you know, we treat people and what we do for people and then more widely now the planet.

Richard Hill [00:14:39]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:14:40]:
And and that is this is a big area. We know climate change is here and we need to do something about it. And so we're increasingly now working in the space where we're helping our clients to get to net zero and help change human behavior because 62% of all of the actions that we need to take to climb to to combat climate change is human behavior related. Yeah. You know? We've gotta stop doing stuff Yeah. That we've always liked doing, and we gotta start doing some other things. Things.

Richard Hill [00:15:08]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:15:09]:
And that's a real hard sell.

Richard Hill [00:15:11]:
Isn't it? Isn't it? So the process, how did it take you to sort of do the process to become a b corp then?

Kelly Evans [00:15:17]:
Well, actually, not too long. The process itself because

Richard Hill [00:15:19]:
you had 20 hours a day. Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:15:21]:
I was locked up in the bedroom for hours. I when people ask me this, I say I would say probably 200 hours was spent Yeah. On going through this process. The longest part was the assessment. Yeah. So once you'd pressed the button, then you sort of done all the work.

Richard Hill [00:15:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. You went back and forth. Oh, we need to prove that you need the proof, don't you? Obviously, you say, yes. We do this. Yep. We do this. We do this.

Richard Hill [00:15:44]:
We do this. Oh, not sure. Research. But, ultimately, you fill it in Yeah. And you've sort of yeah. I've done it. No. You haven't.

Richard Hill [00:15:50]:
You've now got a document, prove, document the process, that type. So that that took a lot more time than the actual filling in of the of the the initial application.

Kelly Evans [00:15:59]:
Yeah. It did.

Richard Hill [00:16:00]:
So from the initial application to then getting the seal of approval, how long do you think that was roughly?

Kelly Evans [00:16:06]:
That took 9 months 9

Richard Hill [00:16:07]:
months.

Kelly Evans [00:16:07]:
Yeah. After pressing the button.

Richard Hill [00:16:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's just a lot of, sort of, checking and collating information and and creating even documenting things that you well, we do do that thing, but we don't necessarily have a written document that should says this is how we do that thing. Yeah. So, clearly, it's impacted your business. For those agencies that are thinking about maybe going on the b corp journey, what would you say to those guys?

Kelly Evans [00:16:34]:
I would say go for it. You know, start now. Mhmm. You know, go on to the website's Yeah. Platform that's free. Start filling out the assessment. Most businesses are sort of operating at a level where they can't get past 50 to 55, and you have to have 80 points, basically.

Richard Hill [00:16:55]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:16:56]:
We managed to get to over a 100 without having to make many changes. But as I said, we we were kinda doing good in the 1st place. Yeah. But I think for agencies, I think it's a lot easier than those that are selling products.

Richard Hill [00:17:10]:
Yeah. You haven't got all the warehouse piece and the a lot of that. What's the word I'm looking for? The, you know, you're buying product from, you know, various different countries, different places, and you maybe don't know. So you can't actually answer the questions about the source of products, and there's a lot more. Whereas if it's an office based business Yeah. I guess this is quite a lot easier. Yeah. We've we've we've pressed the button.

Kelly Evans [00:17:34]:
Oh, have you?

Richard Hill [00:17:35]:
Yeah. We've pressed the button about February time, but then, yeah, the time it takes to then complete the yeah. And we scored 94, I think it was, and that rings a bell. But But then the documentation, now we're on yeah. So we have a we have a target at the end of the year, but, obviously, it's not in our hands where when it when it happens. But, yeah, I think we might be I'm

Kelly Evans [00:17:52]:
sure

Richard Hill [00:17:53]:
you're talking about it. I think we'll be a little bit over. But, so, obviously, running you know, I've always I've all I mean, we we haven't spoken many times, Kelly, but I've always admired your agency from afar, you know, for for a long time. I think we've been going a similar time. I was looking on LinkedIn, and I think you got 3 or 4 months. You got your 15th birthday coming up. So that's a that's a heck of a heck of a distance in any business, but particularly in agency world in the agency world. 15 years, obviously, you've carved a real niche in the agency world, you know, and gotten known as a a thought leader in the space.

Richard Hill [00:18:29]:
And, you know, I've I see you talking at a lot of different events, you know, I'm very passionate, about what you do. But I know over 15 years, it won't have all been it won't have all been played sailing. Right. You know, what what are what would you say to those guys that, you know, I think particularly right now, it's maybe quite challenging for a lot of agencies. You know, what are some of the things you do when things are a bit tough?

Kelly Evans [00:18:54]:
It's it's quite hard. I mean, if I think about that entire journey, started in a recession. Yep. Few years down the road, we're still in austerity. Few years down the road, Brexit. Another few years down the road, COVID. Here we are, cost of living crisis, war in Russia and Ukraine. There's always things happening outside in the external environment.

Kelly Evans [00:19:27]:
And my sort of mantra has always been to kind of accept that these things occur and happen and keep hopeful and optimistic, you know, but also, yeah, just accept that these things are happening around us. But trying to grow a business during those times, it you know, there is no such thing as a straight line up, is there, when you're starting and growing a business? It is a roller coaster. Everyone knows your ups and downs and all over the place. But But in that whole time, there's only been 1 year where I haven't made a profit and that is because I basically put in place a framework right from the beginning of making sure, you know, you know your numbers, you know what is in your pipeline, you're making decisions fast so you're not making, you know, poor decisions in the times when things are hard. So

Richard Hill [00:20:21]:
So over the years, you've sort of developed your framework. Mhmm. You know? And I think you, you know, you obviously what we're saying is, you know, there all there'll always be something, you know, whether that's a big world event. But if you've got a nice cushion or you've got a, you know, when things are maybe really bad out, you know, to the TV on, it's like the world's ended. That's most weeks to be fair. But the reality is, yeah, there's there's there's tough times come come with tough tough times go and be able to be resilient as an agency owner. But, obviously, you've built into your business over the years different processes, different frameworks, you know, adapting various things you've learned and gone, I'm not doing that, but I'm a hassle out of rubbish. And Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:00]:
You know, I know we've had a few chats about sort of the commercial side. You know? And I think that would be really good to share and talk about the sort of some of the key things, you know, that's enabled you to have a real strong sort of commercial side of the business, the financials, that when things do get a bit tough and maybe, you know, we maybe had a month where we're broke even or or, you know, whatever. You know? But the reality is if you've got a good set of numbers behind that.

Kelly Evans [00:21:26]:
So I I don't know about you, Richard, and how you were sort of brought up, but I think some of the way that I was brought up has sort of been instilled into me growing this business. I don't come from a background of people who run businesses. To be quite honest, when I first started and I jumped out of government and straight into running 1, I hadn't a clue. You know, I wasn't running you know, I didn't have spreadsheets all over the place with all the numbers and things. I had it was a steep learning curve, to be honest. But you start small and you learn on the journey, I guess. But one of the things I suppose has instilled into me just from how I was brought up is, you know, debt's not very good. So I always kind of was quite risk averse, if I'm quite honest with you.

Kelly Evans [00:22:14]:
So, you know, over the years, what I would do was build reserve in the business so that when those bad times came Yeah. I could flow through them in a way that felt less stressful than, you know, if I didn't have the cash there to cover and get us through those periods. So I would say I'm quite a sensible Yeah. Business owner. I mean, I 100% own the business. Yeah. It's very profitable. You know? It the reserves are there for Yep.

Kelly Evans [00:22:45]:
Those tough times.

Richard Hill [00:22:46]:
Do you work on, like, having a minimum of so many months expenses in reserves? Did you have, like, a like, I wanna have at least a year's worth 6 months. I know people talk about 6 months and, you know, if you're easy math, you got a $100 a month in expenses. You got 600 k in the bank. You know, a lot of people talk about those sort of you very you those are the numbers that are in your head.

Kelly Evans [00:23:04]:
Yeah. So, I like to have kinda if we took no sales tomorrow, no revenue came in tomorrow, the business could still run for probably about a year Yeah. Which is a nice comfortable place to be. Yeah. And I've realized that actually I quite like safety. And I think it's the again, as I said, the way maybe I've been bought up but also the 1 year that we didn't make a profit, was very stressful and, you know, I just don't want to have to go through that Yeah. Time and time again. I want to feel quite safe in the numbers and be able to sleep at night.

Richard Hill [00:23:43]:
Yeah. Oh, you see. You said the sleep at night thing. No. I was gonna ask you, but I I'm gonna save it. I'm gonna save that one about what keeps you at night. But so just going back for the listeners then, I think that it's such a key thing. You know, I've run my own business for, sort of, 30 years.

Richard Hill [00:23:57]:
And and that piece around just being sensible, if you wanna call it, it's been sensible, but ultimately, saving. You know? Because there will be the odd bad month, maybe several. You know? And if you'll have a month where you lose money and things are so tired that that one month could tip you over the edge, when you think about it as a business, it's not a great place to be. It's not a nice place to be. But if you've got, you know, even 3 months worth of, cash sitting in the business and in the agency world, it's unlikely that you're gonna lose all your business overnight, is it? So, you know, if you've got even a couple of months, money, which could be quite a few, you know, a lot of our we talk a lot about sort of 7 figure agency plus. So in theory, you're doing at least a $100 a month if you're listening to this podcast or you're aspiring to do that. So if you've got a couple of a couple of $100 or maybe less, you know, even a 150 k in the bank, but if you only got 10 k in the bank, not gonna sleep very well at night. Are you knowing that your salaries are due in whatever it may be? Sitting here with salaries due on Monday.

Richard Hill [00:24:53]:
So, you know, we're we're we're a few days away from, I'm sure, both of us having to make quite a large payment. You know? So but if you've only got x amount in the bank. But, obviously, if you've got 12 months worth of funds in the bank, you're not really gonna be waking up every day checking the bank because in it, you know, that that little bit of difference a day or a week or even a month makes isn't really gonna make any difference to this number. So if you're not doing that, you need to start putting it away. Do you do you do you do any sort of, where a lot of people we've talked about, like Profit First, having different bank accounts where you have different amounts of you know, like, a percentage goes into different accounts, like your tax, your VAT, your your your your cash. Do you do things like that where you have percentages each month going in or an amount going in?

Kelly Evans [00:25:36]:
I have, an account for the reserves. The money goes into the reserve account and it builds up there. But, you know, just the the thing you said there about if you are somebody listening and you are getting up every day and you are checking your bank account, I'm telling you now something's not right. Something's wrong and you need to start doing things differently because that is not a great place to be. And I do remember, you know, about a decade ago, 1 Christmas where, you know, I'm sure you get it where clients, they don't pay within the 30 day terms. You could be waiting 3 to 6 months sometimes for payment. And I remember one Christmas having to pay my staff and then going home and not having money for myself because I didn't have enough

Richard Hill [00:26:20]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:26:20]:
To pay myself. Yeah. And, again, these were these moments in time that were like a wake up call. Right. Well, what do we need to do differently now?

Richard Hill [00:26:28]:
I've been there. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a nice place, is it? No. Not a nice place. So and the other thing when you said about, like, cash reserves in a in a savings, the interest rates are actually quite good now as well, aren't they? So after a a few months sort of year goes by, you think, actually, the interest on the reserves, fast forward from probably 3 years ago, was pretty cheap. Now it's like Pretty good. Yeah?

Kelly Evans [00:26:51]:
Yeah. Very good.

Richard Hill [00:26:52]:
So it also makes sense to put that reserve in the right account, not just sitting in any current account and you know?

Kelly Evans [00:26:59]:
Absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:27:00]:
So we've covered off a bit around the finance, but and, obviously, sounds like the cash reserves are good. So good for you. But what keeps you up at night, Kelly? There must be, you know if if you were to lie in bed at night, maybe there's a couple of things in your mind. What are what are usually those things that's spinning around your head?

Kelly Evans [00:27:19]:
Do you know, sometime it's it's quite mundane. It's quite boring stuff. One of the reasons we do so well is we do really look after our clients and I know everybody says that and, you know, really want quality outputs for our clients. And, you know, we have things like we wanna get back to people the same day and, you know, for me, it's, oh, did that person email that person back today or did we quality check that

Richard Hill [00:27:46]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:27:46]:
Report before it went out? They're small things and I can't believe I still have those thoughts because I'm pretty much not operationally in the business anymore. Yeah. It's someone else's responsibility. But I care a lot about it that I still, you know, wake up in the night and think, oh, I must check with that person tomorrow whether they spoke to, I don't know, Wendy or, Tim or someone. So, yeah, they're they're the strange things that kind of keep me up at night. The the bigger things which I know keep a lot of people up at night, are you able to pay people? Yeah. The debts that might be spiraling and so on. They're just they're not there because of what I've done to set the business up in a way that is sustainable.

Richard Hill [00:28:31]:
So what is the biggest challenge right now then? So you're sleeping quite well by the sound of it. There's a few oh, I did x y zed send that email. Few little niggly bits, but what are maybe you know, if the if we're going to go a bit deeper, what are maybe some of the challenges right now sitting here, you know, we just come out of the summer. Yeah. Well, a few weeks ago now. You know, what are maybe a challenge or 2, I think, is you know, I like to talk about this because the reality is, you know, sounds like well, I know you've got a phenomenal business. You know, I I really, you know, I really, like I said, been sort of watching your journey for for a long while as well, and I, you know, I really admire what you're doing, but there must be a challenge or 2.

Kelly Evans [00:29:10]:
There's always challenges. So, I think one of the biggest challenges we have and I know a lot of people have is pipeline.

Richard Hill [00:29:18]:
Yep.

Kelly Evans [00:29:20]:
We work a lot on trying to fill the hopper and get that pipeline going. We've got lots of proposals out. We've got lots of interest. And one of the things that a lot of people are talking about is putting in a lot of work to really mature that pipeline and have all those proposals ready and hopefully converting them. But clients ghosting you and not getting back to you

Richard Hill [00:29:46]:
So annoying. It's so annoying. Tell me no. Yeah. Oh, yes. Ideally. But

Kelly Evans [00:29:50]:
Yeah. So we can move on. I haven't got someone emailing every other week and, you know, disturbing you. If if we're not the right fit, we're not the right fit. It's absolutely fine. So I think pipeline is always

Richard Hill [00:30:01]:
got any, like, 15 years on doing this? Any sort of, like, little secrets of getting just tipping people over. I know at least getting a decision because I think there's nothing more annoying. You know? It's the one I'm I can tell has you've you've you've you've poked the bear, the pipeline, and and what's happening with this? What's happening with this? Well, they said, no. What? That was 3 weeks ago. What's that?

Kelly Evans [00:30:24]:
Well, one of the things we've experienced or we do experience, which always surprises us, and I don't know why after 15 years, but, you know, I could've put a proposal in 15 months ago, and suddenly it comes

Richard Hill [00:30:36]:
Wow.

Kelly Evans [00:30:36]:
To us 15 months later.

Richard Hill [00:30:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. I guess if you're doing a lot of government work, I guess it's quite a cycle of time of year and budgets and end of year. And do you find that quite a lot?

Kelly Evans [00:30:47]:
Yeah. We do I mean, we we do a lot of tenders because of public sector. But, you know, even with businesses and so on, we have to maybe wait. I would say, on average, we could wait 6 to 9 months Yeah. For something to materialize. Yeah. So with that in mind, we're trying to build a pipeline Yeah. 6 to 9, 12 months now.

Richard Hill [00:31:10]:
Quite a long pipeline, isn't it? If I would say for and ours is ours is not that long. Not as long as that, but that's quite long. But that's the type of work you're doing, isn't it, specifically? So let's grab a little look more at the billing if this is okay. Tell me if it's not. But I'm I'm intrigued to know with the type of work you do, is it quite project based? So it's, you know, maybe, you know, 2 or 3, 4 months ring fenced amount of money, and then you're out. Or do you do have quite a lot of retainer work as well? It's quite a unique proposition in yours, isn't it?

Kelly Evans [00:31:39]:
Yeah. So 80 about 80% of our work is project based. Yep. And we've got about 20% that's retainer. Yep. So the pipeline's really important for us because we need to have those projects in the pipeline to maintain the framework that we have, to build that security, I guess. Hence, why I like to put you know, have those reserves there for those times that are more down than up. We tend to do a lot of our business in the last two quarters of the financial year.

Kelly Evans [00:32:11]:
The first two are not so, lucrative but, again, what we're trying to do is build up our pipeline so that we've got work happening in the 1st two quarters to cover that period. So, yeah, I think it's quite a difficult job to do. So billing wise, yeah, we bill milestones. Yeah. We're pretty adaptable and flexible. We can do, you know, 3 payments throughout a project.

Richard Hill [00:32:42]:
Upfront in the middle when it's finished or towards the end. Yeah. They're, like, sort of we talk a lot about dev development and web dev. That's quite often like that, isn't it? Yes. So we've covered a lot of ground, Kelly. Now something when we last spoke, it was probably 6 months ago, and we bumped into each other in London, didn't we? We're literally about 400 yards from each other, and then we got to London. And there was about 3 or 4 agency owners, about us and a couple of other guys from Lincoln. And there was a guy on stage, and he was talking about his his business.

Richard Hill [00:33:10]:
And and there's a sort of a a magic number in the industry, when we talk about, you know, running an agency. Let's make the math simple. We've got 20 people in an agency, you know, the number that most agency owners should be tracking. And if you're not, you need this number. You know, what is your turnover per head within that agency? And the guy on the stage, I think, said 55, 60 k. And I think you nearly fell off your chair. And I was like, I don't think that was that bad.

Kelly Evans [00:33:37]:
And I

Richard Hill [00:33:37]:
think you but I've got, well, we've never a 100. And I was like, wow. That's insane. The and it is like the the magic number.

Kelly Evans [00:33:43]:
You know,

Richard Hill [00:33:44]:
it's the magic number. We're not anywhere. We're not at that number. You know, I want to be at that number, obviously. But a 100 k per head is what we're talking about. So, you know, with a with a headcount of 8, potentially, you could be doing £1,000,000 a year turnover. And, obviously, turnover is one thing. Obviously, that's, you know, as as we touched on profits, what it's all about and and what we're what we're what we're keeping.

Richard Hill [00:34:04]:
But talk to you about that sort of 100 k ahead, you know, the sort of things you've done to be able to get to that, close to that, exceed that. You'd have to give us the exact number. But I think that's just an such an important part of running an agency. It's so easy to hire and spend and get carried away with a head oh, got this many people, this many people. You know, I've been guilty of it for a while. And I'm like, oh, we need to stop. We need to build the revenues and and and and fill the gaps. But, obviously, closer you can get to that sort of number, the reality is you should be running a a very successful, very profitable agency, which means you sleep quite well at night.

Kelly Evans [00:34:41]:
Yeah. So yeah. Okay. Let's talk about that. I think that I've always worked to that number and how I get there is that I know lots of other numbers as well. So the first one is about people and really understanding your utilization rate. Yep. So, you know, the sweet spot people talk about now is about 65%.

Kelly Evans [00:35:04]:
So 65% of your staff member's time is billable. If you're doing it at 80 percent, then you're probably running people into the ground. Yeah. So 65% is a nice nice number to be at. So first of all, it is about understanding that utilization rate.

Richard Hill [00:35:23]:
The second is, for me,

Kelly Evans [00:35:23]:
there has to be a business case to bring on another person into the agency. Yeah. Basically, if, person into the agency.

Richard Hill [00:35:29]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:35:29]:
Basically, if people's utilization rate is going above 65, 70 Yeah. It's building a case as to whether to bring someone new

Richard Hill [00:35:38]:
to you. 2 or 3 people are getting to 75. You may be nearly nearly getting close to maybe they're getting a bit burnt out or, you know, close getting to a point where there might be a challenge there. But, ultimately, you're building a case there to then, oh, we're nearly ready for another person. Another another month will be that just keeps moving a little bit more. We'll be able to hire, start advertising or putting the feelers out. Obviously, that process can take 3, 4 months.

Kelly Evans [00:36:01]:
Yeah. And that's a it has to be a consistent thing because the work is coming in and it's there. I think what tends to happen in agencies, and don't get me wrong, I've been here and I've done this, and this is what's happened to me. You know, someone comes in and they're quite stressed and we need another person. This project's coming and we can't do this and, you know, we need this person and we need a new marketing and we need an everything. I literally can sit down with people now and say, we don't need another person. Yeah. Let's look at this in a bit more detail.

Kelly Evans [00:36:31]:
So really understanding that. And as a result of that, I've kept my team I've got a very core team of people which work to around that 100 £1,000 mark, in terms of the work that's allocated Yeah. Around that. And then if there's any more that come in, then we add to the workforce.

Richard Hill [00:36:52]:
So let's just go back a step. So, obviously, you're talking about 65% billable time. Is that what time? Yeah. So but you must have people in the team that are not doing billable work, or do you

Kelly Evans [00:37:03]:
Yeah. No. That's right.

Richard Hill [00:37:04]:
Marketing, sales, yourself?

Kelly Evans [00:37:07]:
Yes. Yeah. We do. Yeah. So it's so what then what we look so we look at the utilization rate I'm not

Richard Hill [00:37:13]:
saying you don't do any work.

Kelly Evans [00:37:15]:
I wish I did less. But, we look at the utilization rate for each person, but then we look at them as part of a team. And we have 3 teams within our agency. Yeah. So we will look at the team output and utilization. And then, of course, the people that are unbillable, so sales and Yeah. Our director Yeah. And myself and others, we are not counted within that.

Kelly Evans [00:37:38]:
So we have to obviously make sure that we can cover those costs as well on top of that. And we sort of flex between sort of 10 16 people every year, but we keep core we have a core team

Richard Hill [00:37:49]:
Yeah. And

Kelly Evans [00:37:50]:
then sort of add on or bring in people as and when we need it. So we're very flexible in

Richard Hill [00:37:54]:
that one. Maybe step up to 16 no. But you might know that might be a temporary because there's a big project or 3 coming. Are you taking people on contracts then maybe on those understood that it's a 12 month thing, a 6 month thing, but, obviously, we may keep you on if x y zed because, obviously, if you're flexing in and out of 10 and 16, is that

Kelly Evans [00:38:14]:
Yeah. That's right. But in the average person that stays within a workplace now, do you know, is about 16 months anyway. Mhmm. And in agency world, that's even less. It's about just over a year now. Yeah. That's the average.

Kelly Evans [00:38:28]:
That's crazy. Right? Because I think we want people to stay but, actually, the reality is they don't. Yeah. So I'm less worried about, you know, oh, I'm bringing someone in. Can I give them a job for life? Because it's just not the way the world is now.

Richard Hill [00:38:44]:
Mhmm.

Kelly Evans [00:38:44]:
But, you know, if we know we've got projects, you know, and we the value of that is gonna be 1,600,000, that's 16 staff are gonna be required in order to deliver Yeah. That. So that's how we work. If it's down that year and, you know, the pipeline and and what's what we've got contracted is, you know, a million, then we know we're keeping our core 10. Yeah. And then I've got the reserves in the back. So when things are a little bit less than that as they were a couple of years ago after COVID, then, you know, we can cover that until we get ourselves back again.

Richard Hill [00:39:17]:
So are those core 10, are they very aware of the their they their sort of their target of this 100 k per month?

Kelly Evans [00:39:27]:
So what we do is we don't really focus a lot on the numbers. Mhmm. The numbers are very open and transparent with the team, but what I've found certainly over the last couple of years that people start to worry when you talk about numbers a little bit. So we prefer to talk percentages. So we'll say, right. We've met 75% of our pipeline this year, and we've got another 50% in their comp

Richard Hill [00:39:50]:
talk to them about they're 65% billable, that they they they know they've got to hit this 65% or, obviously, they will vary a little bit on person, but they

Kelly Evans [00:39:59]:
So we I've I've now put in place, what I call a hot team, heads of team.

Richard Hill [00:40:05]:
Oh, hot. Hot.

Kelly Evans [00:40:07]:
So we've got 3 people that head up each of the teams, and I meet with them

Richard Hill [00:40:10]:
monthly Yeah. And present the data to them and

Kelly Evans [00:40:11]:
tell them, forecasted for

Richard Hill [00:40:12]:
this

Kelly Evans [00:40:12]:
next month and even beyond that. And they it it really helps us to understand where some of those crunch points are gonna be. So if I know that I've got, you know, 4 animations in the studio in the next 3 weeks, that's gonna put a lot of pressure on the studio. So we can start to plan what we're gonna do in that instance, for example. Or I've got a whole team as I did throughout August that literally had very little to do. And I was like, right. Okay. That's we gotta create content.

Kelly Evans [00:40:56]:
We gotta do other stuff. So you're starting to Yeah. Work that into the schedule.

Richard Hill [00:41:00]:
Some shift some capacity maybe internally for a month while, you know, something's coming to the following month, month after. Fascinating, Kelly. I I I feel like I've I've learned a lot there, so thank you for sharing. Last couple of questions. So I think, fascinating. We're in a very, very lean agency. I think, those that are with us now listening, I would say rewind, go back, look at the numbers, be very aware of that utilization rate because I think this is where most people go wrong. You know? It's when when things are are good, they're great, but the reality of life and running a business is that things are, you know, gonna go have a tricky time.

Richard Hill [00:41:39]:
And if you haven't got the costs and you haven't got that buffer in the background, that's where things can vary very quickly. You know, you see it all the time with agencies. You know? So so many agencies I keep an eye on agencies' heads headcount. You know, just as I just but it's not for no real, like I'm just, like, I guess, a bit of a nerd when it comes to just keeping an eye on, like, a few agencies. Just a benchmark, really. And I don't I don't sort of we do we do our own thing where and I saw a lot of agencies through COVID go, you know, from 40 to a 100 people and then then about down to 40 now. You know? So that journey must have been quite you know, there's such ups and downs with that navigating that amount of movement. I imagine, you know, behind the scenes, there'll be been a lot of a lot of drama.

Kelly Evans [00:42:20]:
Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:42:21]:
So it's just nice to sleep well at night, I think.

Kelly Evans [00:42:23]:
You know?

Richard Hill [00:42:23]:
I'm a big fan

Kelly Evans [00:42:24]:
of that.

Richard Hill [00:42:24]:
I even bought a new bed the other week, but that's a that's a different topic.

Kelly Evans [00:42:28]:
I think your headcount's a funny one though because I think it can give a the wrong impression of how successful an agency is. Yeah. Because you could have 20 people, but it's $25 per person that you're earning. Yeah. And, technically, that's not gonna work

Richard Hill [00:42:46]:
a long time.

Kelly Evans [00:42:47]:
Yeah. So I think headcount is definitely one Yeah. Not to see. Although, they must be growing because they've got more people. Yeah. And one thing I've definitely learned over the last few years is that people is not the way to growth. Yeah. I mean, I certainly had more people, but we are doing better now with less.

Richard Hill [00:43:07]:
Yeah.

Kelly Evans [00:43:07]:
So investing in skills, high quality people, and investing in them rather than stretching ourselves too thin.

Richard Hill [00:43:16]:
So asking yourself, how are you gonna go from 65 grand a head to 85 grand a head, probably with no extra cost, maybe a few few little costs in the background, but an extra 20 k per head, 20 people or even 10 people, you make yourself a little 2, 3, 400 grand a year with no extra people. That is the trick, isn't it? Which is obviously that's the journey you've no doubt over That

Kelly Evans [00:43:39]:
is the journey I've been on.

Richard Hill [00:43:40]:
You've been on and and refining and very specific offer to a very specific, demographic that my understanding is pays very well, and they pay the bill because you're dealing with certain people. You know? So you've got different and less challenges for getting paid. You've got quite an, you know, a chunky ish offer. It's not, you know, a few a couple of grand a month. You know? It's it's a nice chunky offer. It's very niche, you know, all the things that we talk about. And then ultimately you're getting paid well, but you're doing a very specific job. You have absolute goddamn experts at that thing.

Richard Hill [00:44:15]:
It's like if somebody out there is thinking of doing, you know, or wants a social change project, Oh, social behavioral change, sorry, project. There's not many people do. You know? You're, oh, it's you guys. It's just like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Take note, guys. Kelly knows what she's doing.

Kelly Evans [00:44:31]:
Yeah. Well, look. I met an agency owner for lunch, a couple of months ago and he turns over about 10,000,000 and it sounds impressive, really impressive. But when we got real down to the the detail, for the last 5 years, probably been making a couple of grand profit. And the stress that that causes that agency over

Richard Hill [00:44:54]:
As in 2 grand?

Kelly Evans [00:44:55]:
Yeah. A couple of £1,000 profit for the last few years.

Richard Hill [00:44:58]:
£10,000,000 turnover.

Kelly Evans [00:44:59]:
A £10,000,000 turnover. And that's someone that isn't sleeping at night. Yeah. And there's a lot of debt also in that business as well. Yeah. So I think we can some sometimes be a little bit turned on by the turnover

Richard Hill [00:45:11]:
number. Headcount and

Kelly Evans [00:45:13]:
Yeah. And that kind of thing. And, actually, that's what I've realized is just not what we should be looking for when we're looking to successful businesses.

Richard Hill [00:45:20]:
Great. So what is on the road map for the company over the next 12 months?

Kelly Evans [00:45:25]:
Yeah. I think it's, more of the same, and, you know, developing into different areas. So taking the behavioral science and seeing how we can use it in a lot more places, in different markets, and in different types of businesses. I think we're gonna be really busy over the next sort of 6 years around environment climate change net 0. We've all gotta make those changes. And we're also developing our Changemaker Academy, so really starting to help teach and, you know, help people to learn more about how to use Yeah. Behavioral science but for a good because

Richard Hill [00:46:03]:
we don't want to use a subscription that the firms pay for a monthly basis type thing.

Kelly Evans [00:46:07]:
Yeah. At the moment, we've got, you know, a good 10,000 people accessing our Changemaker Academy resources on our website, but we're sort of thinking, well, we could possibly monetize this and, do a few more courses and Yeah. You know, yeah, work with our our team of experts on that.

Richard Hill [00:46:24]:
Interesting. Well, thank you for coming on the show. I'd like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Kelly Evans [00:46:32]:
Yeah. I do. It's quite an old one now, but I think it's really relevant with what's going on in the world today. We think everything, I think, is getting worse. But, actually, if you read a book called Factfulness by Hans Roslin, it's a fantastic book that will change your mind about the world. It talks a lot about human behavior over time as well and, yeah, I would really highly recommend that book. It's one of those ones that's just stuck with me, and I've not

Richard Hill [00:47:01]:
heard of it. I will be on that as soon as you leave.

Kelly Evans [00:47:04]:
Yeah. Honestly, it's fantastic. And, I think if you're in business, knowing what's ahead is quite important and planning for that. Mhmm.

Richard Hill [00:47:13]:
Well, thank you for coming on the show. For those who wanna find out more about yourself, more about social change, what's the best way to do that?

Kelly Evans [00:47:20]:
Well, our website, which is social hyphen change dotco.uk, and I'm also on LinkedIn, Kelly, at Social Change.

Richard Hill [00:47:27]:
Fantastic. Thanks for coming on the show.

Kelly Evans [00:47:29]:
Thank you, Richard. Thank you.

Richard Hill [00:47:33]:
If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.