E17: Aaron Hutchinson

Richard Hill [00:00:00]: What challenges are you seeing with agency senior leadership at the moment when it comes to sales?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:00:05]: Every year there's new agencies coming on board, new agencies being created, and then very quickly those same agencies start repeating the same mistakes that the agencies before them made. And so new business continues to be the same problem.

Richard Hill [00:00:18]: It's not a natural skill set, is it?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:00:20]: If we ask this big question, we get a much, much more interesting answer.

Richard Hill [00:00:24]: We're going to spend time having conversations, so getting very, very, very, very good conversations.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:00:32]: Foreign.

Richard Hill [00:00:39]: You're listening to the Agency Intensive podcast. I'm Richard Hill, your host, and today I'm joined by Aaron Hutchinson from the Hutch consultancy. We try to answer the agency world's oldest question, how to win profitable clients without wasting time on losing pitches. You're gonna like this one. We unpack the four conversations. Pricing without surprises and rab. Revenue above budget and so much more in this one. Very, very actionable.

Richard Hill [00:01:05]: Plain spoken and usable. More importantly, let's go. Enjoy this episode. Well, thank you for coming in. Welcome to the Agency Intensive podcast.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:01:18]: Thank you. Pleased to be here.

Richard Hill [00:01:20]: It's a topic that I think most agencies, agency owners, founders, probably go to bed many a night thinking about this, the sales piece, you know, I think, you know, I've been doing this for far too many years to mention, but 16ish years, you know, and probably sold every single thing in this business for the first seven or eight years and then hired somebody, failed miserably. Sorry to that person. But they were great. They're actually a really good friend of mine, but they were from this background and they sold different things and, and then I then got passed back the baton of sales for many, many years and then tried for a long, long time to master this sales piece around, you know, bringing other people into the business to free up my time to grow the business. And I guess here we are 16 years later, I think with a lot more success than those stories, which we may dive into. But thank you for coming on the show.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:02:18]: Hey, looking forward to it.

Richard Hill [00:02:18]: It should be fun. It's a topic, I think, as I said, that most agency founders sort of top two, top three. It's there, isn't it?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:02:26]: Yep, I think so.

Richard Hill [00:02:28]: So, yeah, welcome to the show. So, you know, what challenges are you seeing with agency senior leadership at the moment when it comes to sales?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:02:38]: I think it's the, I mean, you, you've just touched on it. But it's new business, it's pipeline, it's not making enough money, lack of profitability.

Richard Hill [00:02:50]: It sounds horrendous.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:02:52]: But these, I think these are the things, these are the things that.

Richard Hill [00:02:56]: People.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:02:57]: Are still worried about. I know like the last couple of years have been. I feel like they've maybe been tougher than previous years but I think it's the same. I don't think there's any big new problem.

Richard Hill [00:03:05]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:03:06]: Other than maybe the, the environment's slightly tougher right now. But yeah, yeah. The age old problems of making money and making money profitably. Yeah, they're the big challenges, I think. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:03:16]: No, I'm sort of here, here. I think it's that not, not a lot of new. But the reality is I think you maybe got to be a little bit tougher skinned maybe in a couple of years ago. I think when I, when I speak to agency founders is very much similar conversation. When I see, you know, go to these different events and you know, how's things? Well, you know, anything always. We had this same conversation a year ago and some people sort of are used to the sort of those sort of quite cyclical things that come round and those difficult times but others that maybe not been in it as long are a bit like. It's hard work, isn't it?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:03:53]: Well, I think I was just going to say actually because you do, you have. Why is it this, why is it this age old problem? And I guess you have. The people have been around the block a few times if you don't mind. Select yourself. Cheers. You know, you know what I mean though. But, but also every year there's new agencies coming on board, new agencies being created and then very quickly those same agencies start repeating the same mistakes that the agencies before them made. And so new business continues to be the same problem.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:04:18]: And I do think there's. Yeah, I think maybe just especially think about those newer agencies to start up. Are they, are they set up, are they set up with a solid idea in mind or are they just sort of. Yeah, there's sort of a bit of a copy.

Richard Hill [00:04:30]: Yeah. You see it only the new guys on the block and obviously the barriers to entry in this industry are minimal really. You know, you build a website, you have a passion for a particular. Whether it's you know, SEO.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:04:40]: Yep.

Richard Hill [00:04:40]: Performance website and you go, you know and you know, doubt. Get a client or two from your, your mates or your dad's friends who've got businesses, you know, that's going back, you know, that's probably where a lot of people start, you know, with a couple of projects and then oh, we got, we've got, we got, we got a Bit of money coming in, you know, and we've got a few clients and. And then we're going to be. We're going to focus on getting this stuff done for these people and then you get that bit done. Hang on a minute. We maybe haven't got any more. Oh, new business. Where's the new.

Richard Hill [00:05:06]: Oh, Ella. And then we go again and it's like this hamster wheel of, you know, in the early days for sure, and maybe many years later, trying to get that balance of the doing and the selling and then passing some of that obviously, as you start to build your head count.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:05:21]: Yeah, there's so many businesses and we've talked about it before, you know, there's something like 25, 000 agencies out there in the UK alone and it's. Yeah, that make. That makes it tough and I, but I, I don't think, I think Wendy's. Obviously we're talking about all kind of creative businesses here and agencies, but I think sometimes when those newer ones come online, they think, oh, it's a great idea to set up this company. It's just, you know, maybe with a couple of mates, let's, let's start an agency. But I don't think they often realize quite how competitive the market is.

Richard Hill [00:05:55]: More than ever.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:05:56]: More than ever. And at your point, you know, and it's the same for myself as well in terms of when I set up myself two years ago, that first couple of bits you work you win, they're usually from some friendly, you know, they're people who are happy to give you a bit of a helping hand. Not that they don't need your help, but they're more likely to hire you. But very quickly you have to start finding work from people who aren't so friendly and that's, that's where the challenge comes.

Richard Hill [00:06:18]: Big difference, isn't it, between you've got some work coming from somebody you know, or family, friend and so forth. And that's great, you know, that's great. Well, maybe, I don't know, I have a slightly different rule on that. I'm not a massive fan of working with friends and friends and family and I, you know, usually sort of pretend I don't do what I do so I don't have to do the thing for the, you know, so I keep it a little bit separate, obviously, the odd exception. But then as you say, then winning a bit of fresh business from somebody that has never heard of you maybe three months ago, then maybe seeing you, you know, and then obviously we'll Talk about our process a lot more detail shortly. But basically winning a bit of business from a complete stranger two months ago, whole different game from this, this bit of business. And that's a, that's a big.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:07:01]: That's right.

Richard Hill [00:07:03]: You know, that's the, Gets the goosebumps going for me when you meet somebody for the first time and then, you know, over a period of maybe, hopefully a few weeks, maybe a few months, quite lightly, you become a brilliant client. You know, that's, that's such a feeling. Obviously. Winning it off your dad's mate. Yes, that's cool too. But that comes with all different challenges.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:07:22]: But I had, I had one the other day actually. An agency, an agency based in London and I've been, they've been sort of my list for a while. I, I have met the owner a few times. Yeah, I reached out to him probably two years ago to say, look this, I knew him from my, you know, when I was the MD of an agency. But anyway, he said he knew what I was doing, but I've just been gently there in the background of my LinkedIn posting and this and this and the odd meeting here and there. But today's, you know, now is not the right time. Got an email from him last week and it was just said, nice. What did they say? It was something like, now's the time.

Richard Hill [00:07:58]: That would have worked.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:07:59]: And that was the subject of the email. I'm ready, I'm ready for you. And it was just like, it was so cool. But it was just like, but it was just, it had, it took probably two years for that email to drop. But yeah, it shows why.

Richard Hill [00:08:09]: You just have, that's the reality, guys, of, of this business. So you, you know, you said, obviously there's so many agencies out there. I think something you said to me when we last met up was, you know, there's more agencies in the UK than there is McDonald's.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:08:24]: It's really, I like to, I think it's really important to. Sometimes we talk about how many, how many agencies are in this competitive market out there, but sometimes you just need a bit of context in terms of bringing that to life. Now my maths are probably a little bit iffy, but it's somewhere in there. But yeah, there's 25, 25,000 agencies. Something like 1500 McDonald's in the UK. Yeah, I do. There's another comparison I make with coffee shops and something like 5,000 big brand coffee shops compared to 25, 000 agencies. I mean, when I think of it that way, that's the one.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:08:58]: Really? I think, yeah, I can be in London and see, yeah, a coffee shop in every corner and then I think, oh my gosh, there's five times the amount of agencies.

Richard Hill [00:09:07]: Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? Yeah, it's so true. So pitching, obviously, ultimately you got to get quite good at pitching as an agency owner, founder and I think, you know, we spent a lot of time working together over this last year and working with our team. So thank you for that. But you know, why do you believe agencies waste so much money and time pitching for business?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:09:32]: It's a good question. I think fundamentally pitching is gambling if I really think about it.

Richard Hill [00:09:40]: I.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:09:41]: Your chances of winning a pitch are slim. If you're in a three way pitch, we can talk about the stats in a minute. But best, best case scenario, in a, in a three way pitch, you've got a 33% chance winning. I don't believe that's the case. But five way pitch, they're not uncommon. Yeah, you know, best case, you got a 20% chance of winning. And it's just, and the reality of those numbers are that's not even true because what we, we know, the way that, you know, I think about these things is there's always one business in a pitch that has, has the advantage. Always one.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:10:14]: Yeah, I've been on the end of, I've been successful in pitches when I knew I was that one. I'm sure I've lost many when I wasn't that one. Now, you know, the reality is there's probably one agency, there's a three way.

Richard Hill [00:10:30]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:10:30]: There's one agency that's probably got a 50, 60%.

Richard Hill [00:10:32]: Yeah. So you're more like a 10% absolute outsider.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:10:36]: And then another way to think about it is I think we can all convince ourselves about the brief comes in or the proposal comes in, you go, we can win this. And you convince yourself as an agency or as an individual that. So you convince yourself of all the reasons that you can win it and why you're a good fit and it just doesn't add up. And I don't think people are honest enough about all the reasons that we're not a good fit and here's all the reasons why we're not going to win. And the reality is if, let's say a pitch is going to cost you, I don't know, £20,000 to win that piece of work, if I was to ask any of your employees if you had to spend 20,000 pounds of your own Money to do this pitch. How comfortable or confident would you feel? And I think you'd get a very different answer. And I think we. We hide behind.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:11:33]: Yeah, we hide behind the business, but if we were truly to put our money where our mouth is, I don't think we'd enter half the amount of pictures that we do. It's a gamble.

Richard Hill [00:11:40]: Yeah, totally. And I think that will really resonate with the listeners. The amount of pictures, no doubt, that our collective listeners have done and look back upon. And we didn't really stand a chance. We convinced ourselves we did way more than we actually did. We're introduced as maybe just a number to. To get that third. What's third or second, depending on the.

Richard Hill [00:12:00]: But the ones we have won, we think about the, the. The sort of commonality that they have and the, the themes. And then the ones we didn't win, ones we. Nowhere near one. You know, there's some patterns, isn't there, that you think you're just spending a lot of time.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:12:13]: Yep.

Richard Hill [00:12:14]: Which resource? Money. Ultimately you're wasting time and money, which is obviously what you've been helping us with actually, you know, for the last sort of six months or so. Which brings us nicely into the Win Without Pitching methodology, which is what, you know, a big part of what we wanted to get you here to talk about. So obviously it's something we've embraced over this last year at our agency. Been fairly transformational, I would say. But I think for those that haven't heard of it, you know, you know, why does it work and what is it?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:12:44]: Yeah, good question. Win Without Pitching started or. And continues to be run by a guy called Blair Enns, who's based in Canada. He wrote a book called Good Few Years Ago now called the Win Without Pitching Manifesto, which is essentially a call to arms the creative industry, which is. We're doing things wrong as an industry. We are going about new business in completely the wrong way. And fundamentally, we are wasting so much money on pitching, we're giving away all of our value for free. So it kind of starts with that kind of, I guess, core thought.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:13:20]: What. Win Without Pitching today is essentially a sales training company for. For expert practitioners. What does that mean? It's a way of selling. It's a way of selling expertise.

Richard Hill [00:13:33]: So B2B.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:13:35]: Yeah. Way of selling expertise before you can actually deliver it. You know, we're not selling. We're not talking about selling products on the shelf here.

Richard Hill [00:13:41]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:13:41]: You know, if we're in the agency game where we're in the business of Selling expertise. And that does require a different way of selling. So what window that pitching now is and what, you know, what I talk a lot about and what I worked with you on is the model called the four conversations for selling Expertise. And it's a way of breaking down the sale into four distinct conversations and really putting the onus on the business to lead the client through that sale as the expert.

Richard Hill [00:14:06]: Yeah. Rather than be led and be told, right, I need SEO and I need to do this and this and this is what I need for two months. Well, that's just not a conversation you want to be having, is it? Or you don't want to be following that lead of conversation.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:14:18]: Yeah, no, I think, you know, I would have put myself in this bracket from my agency days before I, Before I lent. Yeah, you know, before I lent. Kind of the frameworks is none or very, very few of us are taught how to sell in a creative agency or a marketing agency or any sort of similar type business. Usually we get into that business because we were interested in the, the doing bits. It's where if, you know, if you get into advertising because you want to create campaigns for the brand or you get into design because you want to build brands and you want to design stuff, you don't get in to sell. And I, you know, and, and that goes, that really starts with the agency owners too, you know, who, because they created these businesses to do creative stuff.

Richard Hill [00:15:00]: The natural skill set is it and it's skill set is the doing the getting the results for the client, creating the crave, doing the ad campaigns, creating the, whatever it may be.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:15:08]: And so what you then, what you then see happen is everybody, and I say everybody, there's exceptions of course, but everybody is just, they're making it up as they go along. Yeah, they're going on gut feel. Yeah, they are winning and of course they are winning new business. But there's a lot of winning on personality, winning it on charm, building up relationships.

Richard Hill [00:15:29]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:15:30]: A bit of guesswork. But you know, for most people working in an agency environment, there's not much of a plan when it comes to selling. And really that's what win without pitching and the four conversations are all about is, is giving you the tools just to, to still come to the meet those, come to the sale as yourself.

Richard Hill [00:15:49]: So it's a framework, it's a framework to follow.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:15:51]: It's a framework, it's a framework to.

Richard Hill [00:15:52]: Follow which it sounds almost like an actual framework for agencies that you can follow that is sort of designed for agencies and Other obviously professional services. So four conversations. I mean, the key is obviously probably the name. There's four specific conversations that you ideally have. Yeah, Maybe step us through those four.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:16:12]: Yeah, that'd be good. Four conversations. Conversation number one, the probative conversation. The probative conversation is, is actually not a conversation that you have. It's typically a conversation that your business is having with the world, with you not present.

Richard Hill [00:16:28]: So maybe somebody's listening to this podcast right now and they've watched, listened to lots of our podcasts and thought, you know what, these guys, Ecom 1 agency intensive, there's something there. Yeah, We've never met them, we've never heard of them, but they're looking at our stuff. They're looking the peeping into our world of socials, some of our events, maybe. So it's what you're doing, it's everything.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:16:52]: That'S basically enabling your business to show itself as an expert to the world. So it's your positioning, it's your thought leadership, it's your marketing, it's the events that you hold. It's the podcast that you record. If, if, if your pope. If your probative conversation is strong, your potential customers out there should start seeing you as the experts, the potential solution to their problems, rather than just another vendor. They should really see the difference in what you, what you're doing versus that's another key words.

Richard Hill [00:17:21]: Another, Another vendor. If you're just another vendor. Yeah, it's just a line item with no real relationship. You just arrives. That's a fireground thing over there. It's not a real, it's not a, it's not a relationship building, an exercise. Potentially. It's tick box.

Richard Hill [00:17:36]: Right. Yeah. We've got our SEO in place. Right. What's next? You're not really.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:17:39]: That's kind of it. And what does the probative conversation do? What we'll talk about is this idea of the flip happening, that your potential customer has been flipped. They now see you as the expert rather than the vendor. And that's a really powerful, you know, that's a really powerful place to be.

Richard Hill [00:17:53]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:17:54]: Ideally you don't want to be the vendor. You know, when the client's saying to you, well, we can get that for cheaper from the agency next door or we can find somebody else to do it. If they truly see as the expert, they, they lean into you. They want to hear how you might be able to help them.

Richard Hill [00:18:09]: Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:18:11]: So that's the purpose of conversation. Conversation number one could say a lot more about that. But yeah, conversation number two, the qualifying conversation, this conversation is really is the very first in person conversation that you're going to have with the client.

Richard Hill [00:18:24]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:18:25]: The purpose of this conversation is to vet the opportunity. Yeah. Is there actually an opportunity here between, between us two, we potentially a good fit for each other. I think there's a skill in qualifying and what we're really trying to uncover is a few key things which we can maybe talk about in a minute. But there's a few key things in that qualifying conversation that really going to help us to determine whether we should move forward together.

Richard Hill [00:18:49]: Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:18:50]: So that's conversation number two. Conversation number three, the value conversation. The value conversation is what's the. We're trying to uncover what's the value that we can create for the client beyond what they've just asked for? What are the metrics by which that would be determined? What would success look like? How much might the client pay for that value and that value creation?

Richard Hill [00:19:11]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:19:11]: And then we can obviously retreat and think about what would a proposal look like.

Richard Hill [00:19:14]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:19:15]: And then finally it's the closing conversation. How do you actually close the deal? In between value and closing, we have the act of creating the proposal. Yeah. It's not a conversation, but that's where we start thinking about, well, what are ideas for solving this problem? Yeah, that's the four conversations. It sounds straightforward.

Richard Hill [00:19:30]: Very straightforward by the way you say it.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:19:32]: Yeah, that's the beauty of it. These things should be simple, they should be applicable often. You know, I just sort of joke, we're not teaching rocket science here, but if we go back to the idea that most people in creative businesses don't have a framework for sales, actually just having a simple framework is a game changer.

Richard Hill [00:19:51]: Something to call on, to go through, to step through. So conversation one, you know, we've touched on that, but I think a lot of it, as the name suggests, is very conversational. Asking specific questions, you know, and ultimately guiding the process to, you know, this is a sort of a systematic way of working with people and talking with prospects and see if they're a fit. If they're a fit, then proposing something that's really going to help them, but ultimately then closing them from that, from that presentation. So you like to ask a lot of very specific types of questions. I know one question you asked me when we started working together is a question that I know you believe everybody should ask their prospect. Step us through that question.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:20:35]: Yeah. Essentially the question is as closely as this to. As close as this to possible. But Richard we're having coffee three years from now. What's happened in that time to make you happy? Happy?

Richard Hill [00:20:47]: What did I say? Can you remember?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:20:51]: I want to be a multi millionaire or something like that. Million. No, no, I want to be on the beach with a daiquiri or something.

Richard Hill [00:20:57]: Beach, daiquiri was, was somewhere in there.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:21:00]: But yeah, there is something magic in this question. It sounds like it's a bit of a funny question or some people think, oh, that's a. Feels a bit awkward. Somebody's just asked me for a website. Why. Why am I asking this big question? But the point of the question is so often the client will come to us with a. Something quite tactical, immediate, that they need. Yeah, I need a website, I need a film, I need, I need a new logo, whatever it might be.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:21:26]: I need a. I need a quick SEO campaign for Christmas, whatever. But usually that ask is immediate and tactical. And so that one, one solution to that is we just provide the client. Exactly. No, no problem. We can do that for you.

Richard Hill [00:21:41]: That's one way to do it.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:21:42]: That's one way. And we can, you know that that's fine. Right. But there's maybe a better way, which is when we've got the client in our hands right now, is to ask that question and really try and move the client from thinking about the tactical stuff. Yeah, that also that they've diagnosed their own problem and prescribed their own solution to say that this is what we need. So we haven't even really questioned that. But yeah, if we ask this big question, we get a much, much more interesting answer and it's quite an open question. I'm not telling, I'm not asking you.

Richard Hill [00:22:14]: Yeah, there's no definition exactly what does.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:22:16]: What is happy to you. And it's different for every person but you. If we ask this question. Well, and it's not just asking the question, once you give me a response and I can dig into it and dig into it and dig into it and hopefully draw out a super interesting picture. And in that, in that answer that you give me, there's potential opportunity.

Richard Hill [00:22:33]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:22:33]: It's not to say that the dream picture that you give me, I can deliver all of that as an agency, but I might be able to deliver a percentage of it or some part of it later on. So we're just trying to move the client away from short term thinking, just something bigger. And that question really is a thread that runs through the conversations. It's happened to the qualifying conversation. We check in and we check in on this again in the Value conversation. Yeah. When I think about my proposal, one of my options is going to be. My best response to that answer versus a website is just, yeah, you can have a website.

Richard Hill [00:23:13]: Yeah. Website says. But you talked about this three year picture, which is this. And it's a brilliant. It's a. I think it's, I think everyone is, no doubt is thinking about this question now because. Yeah, I mean, immediate thought is, you know, okay, well, I came to talk about this maybe, but actually if you just pause for a minute, there's a lot more on most people's minds about in three years, do I want to be saying making every single phone call if it's an agency that's listening in, you know, so. Well, I want to get some structure in place, you know, so I'm better at it.

Richard Hill [00:23:43]: But then maybe then I want somebody else to do it within the business or I'm that person who's already got somebody else doing that thing. But you want them to get better at it and scale that department, you know, so I can do other things in the business or do less in the business and. But then that means that I can do this. And then you start thinking about family and where you're living and you know, I can go and you know that that's where I sort of go and.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:24:05]: That'S where you go, but somebody else will go somewhere different. But I think, you know, that, that question that you asked me at the beginning, what are some of the big challenges? Some of the big challenges now are making money.

Richard Hill [00:24:15]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:24:15]: And when you, when you have a potential client in front of you, there's opportunity there so you can serve them the thing that they need or does the opportunity to make more and deliver more value and create more opportunity from those opportunities that you have in front of you, if that makes sense.

Richard Hill [00:24:33]: You just become you. Going back to that question of you're the. You be, you then got the opportunity to be the expert because you're not just somebody has just come along and said, right, I need new website. And you go, okay, yeah, it's eight, 18 pages, 40 grand or whatever. That's the nonsense. You know, it's like I have to understand, understand, understand, understand. And actually the website is one part of this opportunity, you know, which we'll come to. You know, they come to you for one thing.

Richard Hill [00:24:54]: But ultimately that's like an order taker, isn't it? You know, an order taker is a certain skill.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:24:58]: Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:24:59]: But if you can take that order and turn it into, you know, three or four times what they came to maybe spend with you initially because you've looked at the opportunity, you've understood that business and look to areas where, yeah, you can help maybe that 78%, maybe, you know, other people in your network that can do other things and you built that sort of, you know, more of a holistic package for them with what you do and maybe somebody else and you give them, you know, you've gone from a, maybe a three month project to a three year, you know, retainer or something.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:25:29]: Yeah, it's the difference, I think, between, you know, it is the difference between an expert and a vendor. A vendor will give you what you ask for. Sure, no problem. Yeah. An expert is going to really try and look at the bigger picture and it comes up a lot when we do the training, but. And you can use it in many different ways. But this, I've talked to you about it before, but the doctor analogy. Yeah, another version of that doc.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:25:54]: The doctor analogy here is like you come into the doctor surgery with a symptom. The doctor can give you some immediate drugs now to fix that thing. But a good GP is really going to look at your whole self and think about, well, what's really going on here and what's causing this to happen and what if we did this and what if we did this and so that you're not going to come back here in six weeks time needing another prescription. We're actually going to try and fix you. Yeah, I don't, you know, fix you properly. Yeah. And it's quite nice thinking about that.

Richard Hill [00:26:24]: Doctor is going to be. Well, you know, he's. Yeah, about. So expert, not vendor, expert, not vendor.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:26:30]: And always ask yourself, with expert and vendor is the client or the potential client can only see you as one. Yeah, they either see as the expert or they see you as the vendor. Yeah. No, in between. It's binary. Ask yourself, how is this client seeing me? If they're seeing as the vendor, then you've maybe got a bit of work to do to try and move yourself into the expert seat. If they see as your expert, don't get complacent, you can fall back into vendor.

Richard Hill [00:26:54]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:26:54]: And so just keep making sure that everything that you do is sort of leading, leading your client and you're always sitting in that expert seat. Yeah, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:27:05]: That's one. One of the tricks, isn't it? To be. To remain. To be the expert and remain the expert. Not let them lead, not let them. Right, I need this and no. So it's asking a good set of Questions, which is sort of the framework.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:27:18]: Yeah. And just being conscious of where you are. And this is. I think a lot of this is about, you know, I talked about the beginning of this is asking those questions. What are the reasons why we're not going to win this?

Richard Hill [00:27:27]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:27:27]: It's just. It's asking yourself more honest questions about where are we in this process right now?

Richard Hill [00:27:32]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:27:32]: Are all the reasons not going to win. Am I the expert or am I the vendor? Because then you. If you ask yourself these questions, you can. Yeah, you can change the outcome.

Richard Hill [00:27:40]: So we've got the framework, you've got the conversations. But I think one of the conversations that a lot of people struggle with is money, you know, and pricing. You know, another one of our guests, who we do quite a lot of work with as well, you know, if you. He's saying is a lot. If you're not comfortable talking about money, you'll never have any sort of thing. He says it a lot more eloquently than that. But ultimately. So having those conversations around the pricing, obviously the fourth conversation is very much, you know, the close.

Richard Hill [00:28:08]: But ultimately, you have got to be confident in the way that you present pricing, you know, and you've touched on a few things there. Obviously, potentially in some instances, they come, you know, a client will come to you or come to the people that are listening. Right. I'm looking for SEO, you know, and our budget is this, you know, and you've found out the budget. Because we've asked the right questions. We've got to make sure there's a budget there that aligns with us as a business. But then, you know, there's some bits in the middle. But then ultimately, you know, we're then presenting our price offer, you know, what advice would you give to our listeners around pricing, you know, pricing with the four conversations in mind?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:28:46]: Yeah, good question. I could probably say a lot about this. Just as you were talking there, the first thing that came into my mind was no surprises. And what I mean by that is, so often, even if the client's given you a number, you haven't committed to giving the client something for that number. So you go away and you do all your clever work and come up with a big proposal and all the ideas that are going to go into the proposal, and then you get to the proposal day and it's time to present to the client 50 hours later of work, and you've done all of this work and there's been maybe a bit of back and forth with the client, whatever. But you're now in the room virtually or in person with the client and you start taking them through your deck. And it's the usual story of here's a bit about us, here's a bit about you, here's the idea, here's the strategy, here's the insight, here's the idea. But all along you probably in your presenting are thinking, we still haven't got to the money, we still haven't got to the money, we still haven't got the money.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:29:50]: And now the client's also thinking in that moment, and how much is it? How much is this going to cost? This is great, but how much is it going to cost? So there's this and then you get to the moment and you probably don't deliver it brilliantly and you tell them the number. And I mean one, you know, one, one option is it's okay, or the other option is we do not have that sort of money and they kind of fall off their chair and you've wasted all of that time. So to when I said no surprises, what we should be doing through the sale is from the very first qualifying conversation, what level investment do you have for this? Hopefully they give you a number. If they don't give you a number, you give them a number. You'll say, projects like this typically range from X to Y. In the next conversation, the value conversation, we're talking again and we're trying to, we're thinking bigger, but you might say to the client, so let's say the client has told us they've got 30,000. Yeah, we're going to guarantee, we will guarantee to give them something for 30,000. We always give them something for their money.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:30:48]: Yeah, we'll let them know that. So, yeah, they can be reassured that whilst we might show them some other.

Richard Hill [00:30:54]: Stuff at the end of the process.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:30:56]: So will be something for your budget, what you've said. Yep.

Richard Hill [00:30:59]: But we'll also have a look at other things and we'll refer Back to the three year pick, the three year discussion.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:31:06]: @ the end of the value conversation, we'll say something like, okay, I'm going to go in, create a proposal, I'm going to come back with options ranging from 250,000 to. And I'll give you something for your budget of.

Richard Hill [00:31:17]: 30,000.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:31:17]: Yeah. Is that okay? Yes, that's okay. Because they're going to have something for their.

Richard Hill [00:31:22]: Budget.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:31:22]: Yeah. Then when we get to the closing, there is no surprise when you say, go back to them and say, so today I've got three options. Ranging maybe this time from 200, not 250 to.

Richard Hill [00:31:32]: 30,000.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:31:33]: Yeah. The client's going. Yeah, that's what we agreed. So trying to take surprise out of the money and telling the client what you're doing is going to save a lot of.

Richard Hill [00:31:42]: Stress. If you're with us now, just pause the podcast and rewind it five minutes, because this will save you a lot of time, a lot of pain, a lot of effort, a lot of wasted time. Having those trickier conversations up front to understand.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:31:58]: Budget. It's true, but to your point, it's, it's. I know it's.

Richard Hill [00:32:02]: Tricky.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:32:03]: Yeah. But another thing I would say is it's not the client's money, their personal money. Yeah. So any hang. I'm not asking very rarely unless it's a founder of a very small business. But on the whole, you're asking people in a business, how much is their business willing to spend. That's a different conversation than asking the individual, can I have a hundred thousand pounds of your own money? So they're not as attached to that money as you might think they are. Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:32:30]: And just. We can only move forward to this process if we can have open, honest conversations about money. We. We're not trying to rip you off. We just want. We. It's our job to deliver maximum value. If you tell me you've got 30,000, I will tell you everything that we can.

Richard Hill [00:32:44]: Do.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:32:44]: Yeah. For 30,000 to give you maximum.

Richard Hill [00:32:47]: Value. I think, you know, how many times have our listeners pitched, presented this piece and got even the lowest option is like, oh, we haven't got that. Or the words of those.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:32:56]: Effect. And it's.

Richard Hill [00:32:57]: Embarrassing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've all spent a lot of time, a lot of resource, you know, and ultimately both sides are very, just very deflating, isn't it? So, yeah, great advice. So we've got. So we've got options. Yeah, Any, any, any sort of maybe deeper advice on the options we've got. We've got a price. That is the price that we understood was the budget.

Richard Hill [00:33:17]: And then we've got maybe a couple of other.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:33:19]: Options. Okay. So there's like with all of your questions, I could spend an hour on them if I could say maybe one thing about options. Options are magic. I shall say two things about options. Yeah. If you only present one option. So let's again go Back to our.

Richard Hill [00:33:35]: 30,000.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:33:36]: Yeah. Richard, the budget for this or the price for this is going to be £30,000. All you can really say to that is, thanks very much. I'll get back to you. I'll go back and consider. There is no conversation to be had. If I give you three options, I'll talk you through my three options. At the end of that, I can now say to you, Richard, which of these options makes the most sense to you? Which options are you liking? Which.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:33:58]: Which feel challenging. But we can have a much more strategic conversation around the options. So you're not just retreating, saying, thanks very much, I'll get back to you. We can now talk about the pros and cons of the options. And we're having quite a different conversation compared to what the other agencies or businesses might be having with the same client. It's a really interesting conversation when you present options. Yeah. And even in your head as the client, you're thinking, I like a bit of that one.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:21]: I like a bit of that.

Richard Hill [00:34:21]: One.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:22]: Yeah. Could we have that one with a bit of that.

Richard Hill [00:34:24]: One?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:24]: Bingo.

Richard Hill [00:34:24]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:25]: Know. And so we're. We're sort of. We're. We're getting the client in a different.

Richard Hill [00:34:27]: Mindset.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:28]: Yeah. If I could say one more thing about options, I would say it is not bronze, silver, gold. Options are not bronze, silver, gold. It's not good, better, best. It's not small, medium, large fries. Yeah. All of these things suggest that you're giving me stuff that I don't need. It also, like, if we go back to bronze, silver, gold, you as the agency aren't going to feel very happy about selling.

Richard Hill [00:34:51]: Bronze.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:51]: Yeah. The client doesn't want bronze. So the way that I would frame options is here's three great, but different ways that we could work together.

Richard Hill [00:34:59]: Yeah.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:34:59]: Yeah. And we present these options much more.

Richard Hill [00:35:01]: Objectively.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:35:02]: Yeah. Without.

Richard Hill [00:35:03]: Judgment.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:35:03]: Yeah. And we just say, look, we've got a way. We've thought about it. It's three really great ways of working together. Which of these makes the most sense to.

Richard Hill [00:35:10]: You?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:35:10]: Yeah. I'm not trying to judge them because also, we don't really know what's going on behind the scenes of that business. Yeah. They may love option C, the big one, but they may not have the cash flow to pay for it. And we don't know all of these things, so we don't know all of the.

Richard Hill [00:35:24]: Factors.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:35:24]: Yeah. You know, that.

Richard Hill [00:35:25]: Would. So they're all going to work in varying degrees. They're all great. The first one is a great option. It's not the brawn only got third play. You know, it's the. It's a great option. It's an option that, you know, we discussed and, you know, when you said about your budget, that is the option for that budget and it's a great.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:35:40]: Option.

Richard Hill [00:35:41]: Yeah. However, when we spoke, we talked about the three year plan and vision where he said he wanted to do this or he wanted to do that. So we've taken that into account. There's an option that does that and looks at this and this and this and adds this in. And then there's a third option for this real aspirational option which is, you know, from 30k to 150k, which is a, you know, in. That's a big difference. But that may go back to the powers that be or the, you know, the budget controllers and go. Actually we have been thinking about doing that, you know, and we've seen, you know, back to our agency, you know, presenting these options.

Richard Hill [00:36:13]: It's very rare that they go for the first option. Very rare.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:36:17]: Yeah. People like to people, it's not.

Richard Hill [00:36:19]: In common for second third option, but it's very common for them to go, well, we really like option two, we really like option three, but maybe two, with a bit of three and all of a sudden that 30k is now.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:36:30]: 70K.

Richard Hill [00:36:31]: Yep. But it's not. You maybe didn't have a 70k option, but you've created an.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:36:35]: Option.

Richard Hill [00:36:35]: Yeah. Because you've understood, you've listened, you've had those very fairly lengthy conversations around, you know, understanding what their aspirations and where they are and what they've got in the business and where they hopefully can go. And actually there's another way to help them with this, this and this. So we put that into an option that's not maybe what they came for in their mind straight away, but now they realize actually, you know, what you're talking about and you've done it before, you know, and you've maybe mentioned in some of the conversations about similar things, things you've worked.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:37:06]: On. There's. They're also a great way to. They're also a great way to reframe how the client sees your business. Sometimes, you know, clients really love to pigeonhole us and go, this business is just good for.

Richard Hill [00:37:18]: That.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:37:18]: Yeah. So it may be that you don't sell option B or C right now. That's fine. But you might also get the response, oh, we didn't realize that you did that. So just over time you can maybe just start shifting perception through showing what you really are capable of. Even if they only go for the lower option right now, because for time for budget, for whatever reason, but you're starting to drop seeds that actually as a Business, you're capable of a lot.

Richard Hill [00:37:41]: More. So we've got to get a budget from.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:37:44]: Them.

Richard Hill [00:37:44]: Yep. And we're going to present something that is there about that budget as a start.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:37:48]: Point. We always give them something for their money. If we go through the process.

Richard Hill [00:37:51]: Yep. And then there's two other.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:37:54]: Options.

Richard Hill [00:37:54]: Yep. You know, based on the conversation.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:37:56]: You'Ve had, it's easy, guys, come.

Richard Hill [00:37:58]: On. It's easy when you've been working with Aaron for a year. That's all I'll.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:38:02]: Say.

Richard Hill [00:38:03]: So. So something else you talk about is rab, you know, and rab, something you've been hammering home to us for those that are going.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:38:10]: Rab? What the hell's.

Richard Hill [00:38:10]: Rab? I thought that was a brand of jackets. What's rab and what sort of some of the steps that our listeners can take to improve.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:38:18]: Rab. This is something that I love. Rab. RAB stands for Revenue Above Budget. So when the client comes to you with £30,000 and through your options, you eventually sell it for £100,000, we're calculating the difference in this instance.

Richard Hill [00:38:35]: 70,000.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:38:36]: Yeah. So we've got 70,000 of £70,000 of RAB, revenue above budget. It's just a great number to.

Richard Hill [00:38:43]: Track.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:38:43]: Yeah. And what it tells me is I've been thinking more about this number recently, but at a business level, if that. If your rab. So calculate it over a year. Track it every opportunity that comes in. What was the client's stated budget? What did you close it for? What was the client's data budget? What did you close it for? Calculate that difference. What does it mean if that number is zero at the end of the year? To me, it just means that you're. You're a very good waiter, you're a very good order.

Richard Hill [00:39:13]: Taker.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:39:14]: Yeah. It's essentially, can we have something for 20,000? Yep, 20,000. Can we have something for 30,000? Yep.

Richard Hill [00:39:19]: 30,000. The.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:39:20]: Dessert. We're not selling that. We're not doing anything other than just giving the client what they want. If that number looks like 1002-003000-00400,000, a million, whatever that tells me that you're doing, you are leading the client. You are selling like an.

Richard Hill [00:39:35]: Expert.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:39:36]: Yeah. You are offering more value. You're creating opportunity. You're giving the client things that they didn't even realize that they needed. It's also maybe an interesting number for an individual in a business to track. So if you're on the sales team or an account team, you know, track your personal rib. What a Great number at the end of the year to go back to your boss with and go yeah, when she were asking for your pay rise by the way. My, you know, all of the opportunities that came across my door, you know I closed I created 200000 of revenue above budget for this business.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:40:08]: That shows to me that you're got a growth.

Richard Hill [00:40:09]: Mindset. Yeah, it's a great thing to track because ultimately you know an inquirer comes in 50k, you sell them 150, you've got this 100k difference. You do that over a year for X amount of deals and pipeline that comes through. You know the difference between an order taker and a real strong salesperson that spots opportunity, can work and communicate very, very well with prospects to, you know, help them better. Yeah, you, that's, you know the difference, big difference between major success and maybe.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:40:37]: Mediocre. I would say about that number as well is it's a magic number but it becomes more magic if you can make that, that, that extra, more profitable. Yeah, hopefully it is because the solutions that you're selling have a higher value so it becomes less around selling time and minutes and more about strategic solutions that you can charge more for. So I would also like to see not only is your rab going up but the profit on that work is, is higher than your more vendor type work. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:41:06]: Yeah. So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground very, very quickly. Obviously we've been working with you for about a year now with our sales team and our account management team and you know, some of these things you've talked about. We've done days training on you know, so I think you know, you know, we've been very, very quick to step through. That's the nature of the podcast. But obviously you know we, we can reach out to Aaron after the session and speak more on the, on the details. But I think something that you know, obviously we've hired a few people in sales. You know I've always been in sales my whole life.

Richard Hill [00:41:38]: You know sales can be tough. You know, really, really tough. I think especially, you know, especially agency sales. You know, it's you know, selling a high value item, you know, tens and tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of service. You know, what advice would you give to those that are maybe having a tough time, you know, for staying resilient, staying motivated, keep on going to sort of your go to in terms.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:42:02]: Of staying resilient and you know, kind of the mental health of the agency and the people inside it, there's nothing more depressing and soul destroying than working on work that's futile. Just working on work that you're never going to.

Richard Hill [00:42:16]: Win.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:42:17]: Yeah. Just working on spending, coming into the office and spending late nights putting the pitch deck together, going in full of hope to present it for, to get the email that says, sorry, we've decided to go in a different direction and for that to happen time and time again, I just think that is not good for anybody. I think it, yeah, like I said, it's a little soul destroying. And I think that, you know, in terms of making you more resilient, that can't help. So what, so what's the alternative? Well, not to stop pitching, but really to think about. Yeah. Your odds in a given pitch. Really make sure that if you're going to enter into that, you know, you're the business with the inside.

Richard Hill [00:42:59]: Track.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:42:59]: Yeah. If you're the one with the inside track, you know, you're the one with the inside.

Richard Hill [00:43:02]: Track.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:43:02]: Yeah. I was speaking to a client, he was asking for some advice the other day and he said, what do you think about this situation? The client's asking us for more. But he said, essentially he said, there's one other agency. But he said, the client has said to me, look, if you can just do this for me, it's in the bag, you know, so he's, he's got strong feelings that he's got the inside track. The other agency isn't being told.

Richard Hill [00:43:24]: This.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:43:24]: Yeah. So, you know, if it's you, what else would I say to make you more resilient? I mean, this comes down to the business itself, but it's really, really hard when you don't know who you're targeting. When you don't know who your ideal client.

Richard Hill [00:43:39]: Is.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:43:40]: Yeah. It's virtually impossible. I've often described as, you know, that feeling when I mean this, this, this is this insight into my life. But you sit down and you think, right, I'm gonna watch some Netflix tonight. And you sit down on the sofa and you fire up Netflix and you think, I don't know, I'm. I don't know what to watch here. There's too much.

Richard Hill [00:44:00]: Choice. You're headed by from.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:44:01]: Room. And then I said, then for me, then I, that's when I start scrolling on Tick tock and I just give up on Netflix. But I think often new business can be a bit like that. You, if, if you don't know where you're going. If you know. So if I could say to myself, right, I'm going to watch a sports documentary.

Richard Hill [00:44:15]: Tonight.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:44:15]: Yeah. Okay. Straight sports documentary. I'll pick one. It's.

Richard Hill [00:44:18]: Easy.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:44:18]: Yeah. So I think with new business, we need that. Who's my ideal.

Richard Hill [00:44:21]: Client?

Aaron Hutchinson [00:44:21]: Yeah. And then we start chasing. Let's start targeting and speaking to and yeah. Writing content for those, those people. Because otherwise we just get frozen. It's just. And you just. And then you just sort of.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:44:36]: Yeah, yeah. I could come up with all sorts.

Richard Hill [00:44:38]: Of. So that. So, so there's two, two main takeaways there that I see. You know, ultimately I think an inquiry comes in or a potential bit of business comes in and you've got to be real, you got to have an honest conversation with yourself. Do we stand a bloody chance with this? Are we just the 5%, 10%, 3% or whatever it may be and it's not a fit. Are we going to spend how much time we're going to spend on it? But then it also comes down to having that framework in place, which is what we've been discussing. You know, we're not going to spend then three days creating a presentation. We're going to spend time having conversations.

Richard Hill [00:45:09]: So getting very, very good conversations, not presentations. I think listeners would be a standard to know that we do not use decks anymore in our present, in our press, in our, in our sales process. We use, you know, we may have free.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:45:25]: Slides.

Richard Hill [00:45:25]: Yeah. And how would you do.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:45:27]: That? Tools, not presentations, frameworks and you.

Richard Hill [00:45:30]: Know, so conversations and then a very specific way to lay out the, the pricing. But conversations. You're not spending the three days on the deck and ultimately just running through a DEC. Lost them on slide.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:45:43]: 82.

Richard Hill [00:45:44]: Yeah. And so forth. But then going back to that, targeting those ICPs, I think that's where a lot of agencies make that mistake. They're just trying to be everything to everybody. Which is sort of the, the golden rule of agencies. Successful agencies are usually very, very focused on a type of ICP or industry.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:46:00]: Yeah. And I know like for myself, you know, you know, I know I'm. My ICP is independent creative companies, you know, up to a certain size. You know, I am not for. Although I could work with them, but I'm not going to spend time or any energy.

Richard Hill [00:46:17]: Targeting.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:46:18]: Yeah. A big 3,000 person agency. If they want to come and talk to me, I will happily talk to them. But having a really clear mind, you know, clear direction in terms of, you know, sometimes when I'm, you know, the dreaded having to write the LinkedIn post and I'm stood in the shower, it's just like who you know, thinking about what's my LinkedIn, who's my LinkedIn post for the day. Then it's just like well you know, what does somebody like Richard want to hear? Or you know, and it's just like being really clear about that and writing to one person. Sounds obvious but yeah, if, if. And then through that interesting opportunities still come to you. It doesn't mean that just because you're targeting one specific group.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:46:52]: Like again in my own experience as a consultant I'm, I only target creative businesses. I'm starting training with a legal firm next week. Yeah, I was speaking to an.

Richard Hill [00:47:01]: Architect I think targeted them because they've, they've like some of the peripheral. They've seen a conversation that you. That's out.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:47:08]: There. My probative conversation. You know it takes time and it takes a couple of years. You know, it takes a while. It doesn't happen overnight. But yeah, people go oh that's interesting. I'd love to hear more about that. Maybe I could apply that to my business.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:47:19]: Exactly. And that's the same an agency was. So don't be worried about positioning. Yeah. More tightly. The opportunity will still.

Richard Hill [00:47:25]: Come. Well, I feel that this episode could be a double, triple.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:47:29]: Quad.

Richard Hill [00:47:30]: Quad. This is a topic that you know, I'm sort of fascinated with and spend a lot of my working life in. So thank you so much on the show. Yeah, I like to end every episode with a book recommendation. Have a book to recommend to our agency leaders out.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:47:45]: There. It would be remiss of me not to recommend the Four Conversations by Blair ends. Yeah, yeah, it really is. I work with this book all of the time and I, I teach the four conversations. But if you've ever been interested in Win Without Pitching and how it actually works and how you can apply it to your business. The Full Conversations is actually a really hands on book that has. It tells you how to do it. It's obviously not as good as training but yeah, it's a good, it's a good starting point in terms of a really practical hands on book in terms of.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:48:15]: And so much of what I've talked about today is in that book. So that's what I would.

Richard Hill [00:48:18]: Recommend. Yeah, I mean that's how this all started really. You know, we, we sort of made aware of the book and then we're made aware of Aaron and here we are, you know, a year or so later, you know and it's actually quite a nice read in terms of. It's not like that, is it? It's quite a quick, yeah, you know, very readable, split up, broken up into the four conversations but it's very digestible and probably a, you know, one or two sittings really. I think so it's quite, yeah. So thank you for coming on the.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:48:42]: Show. For those who want to find.

Richard Hill [00:48:43]: Out more about what you do or consultancy, what's the best way to do that and reach out to.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:48:48]: You? Yeah, two ways. You can come to my own website which is the Hutch Consultancy. The website is thehutch co or go to win without pitching winwithoutpitching.com and find out more about the the women with their pitching.

Richard Hill [00:48:59]: Program. Brilliant. Well, thanks for coming on the.

Aaron Hutchinson [00:49:01]: Show. Thank.

Richard Hill [00:49:01]: You. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next.