E002: Chris Thomas

Chris Thomas [00:00:07]:
We're here with

Richard Hill [00:00:07]:
the 2nd episode of Agency Intensive. I'm Richard Hill, your host. Now in this episode, I speak to Chris Thomas, CEO at Cake Agency. We go deep on nailing your niche with cake's tagline, the only ecommerce agency founded by retailers for retailers. This one really resonated with me. Chris and I stepped through his journey from store owner to agency owner and how this hits home with Chris' perfect ICPs. Some of the decisions that Chris has made that have shaped the culture at CAKE today and Chris's advice on hiring and retaining those superstars. And I asked Chris what keeps him up at night and so much more in this one.

Richard Hill [00:00:43]:
Now

Chris Thomas [00:00:44]:
do me one favor, hit the subscribe

Richard Hill [00:00:46]:
or follow button wherever you're listening to this podcast, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now, let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hi, Chris. How are you doing?

Chris Thomas [00:00:59]:
Yeah. Good. Thanks, Richard. Thanks for having me.

Richard Hill [00:01:01]:
Well, thanks for coming on the Agency Intensive Podcast. I got

Chris Thomas [00:01:05]:
I got the blue top memo.

Richard Hill [00:01:07]:
Yeah. That's good. That's a good match. That's a good start, isn't it? Good start. It was brand new yesterday, actually, especially for you.

Chris Thomas [00:01:13]:
There you go. Full British. I wanted.

Richard Hill [00:01:17]:
Well, thanks for coming on the show. I'm really excited to have a good chat with you. I think we've got similar stories, but I'm sure, some similar war wounds maybe along the way.

Chris Thomas [00:01:28]:
Yeah. So

Richard Hill [00:01:29]:
I think it'd be great for you to kick off, introduce yourself to our listeners and how you're going to the agency world.

Chris Thomas [00:01:35]:
Yeah. Sure. Thanks. Thanks again, Richard. Yeah. My name's Chris. I'm, the CEO and founder of an agency called Cake Agency. We're an ecommerce agency based, in Birmingham.

Chris Thomas [00:01:45]:
We've been going for about 7 years now. My my career preagency was as a an online retailer. So I got into online retail right back in the in the birth of ecommerce, really, back in 2002, through various events that happened in my in my family life. I was training as an accountant, in London at the time with, with KPMG. But I was presented with a a family business to take over and, that was a high street store in Birmingham called the Oasis, which was, a legendary store in in in Birmingham as, like, an independent fashion hub. And we thought we'd have a a go online retail, which in 2002 was still the days of dial up connections, and, you know, you probably knew the Internet ecommerce for buying knockoff CDs from Hong Kong or something. And and and so on. But we thought we'd have a go at putting some of the product that we had available online, and, we were pushing an open door on that front.

Chris Thomas [00:02:47]:
And we we put a pair of Doctor Martins online, and within half an hour, they'd sold somewhere outside of the UK. I think it was New Zealand. And we just thought, this is interesting. So so, we just pushed that door for the next 15 years and, it was a fantastic, story to be part of, full of highs and lows, of running a retail business on running a retail business firstly, but then also doing it online. And online was, like the wild west in the noughties and, you know, you just had to kind of get stuck in and make the best of it. And, yeah. So I I I I built my skills and my knowledge really in retail first and foremost. And then when I exited that business, agency found me.

Chris Thomas [00:03:40]:
I didn't really find the agency. So it kind of happened very by accident, really.

Richard Hill [00:03:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. But I guess you took, that knowledge from, retailing? And how you'd, how you'd managed to, I guess, back then scrape a website together almost maybe back in the day.

Chris Thomas [00:03:58]:
Well, absolutely. I mean, our first website, I've still got screenshots of it because it was it was about 32 clicks to make a purchase. And, you know, it would take 2 or 3 minutes to download a product page.

Richard Hill [00:04:13]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:04:14]:
Yeah. Very, very, very cumbersome, but unbelievable, as I say, we were making we were making sales from day 1. And

Richard Hill [00:04:21]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:04:22]:
So it was it was really I mean, I find it quite amusing that I'm running an agency because as my in my time as a retailer, I hated agencies. I mean, I I I had very Is

Richard Hill [00:04:36]:
that still the case for most, retailers?

Chris Thomas [00:04:39]:
I think it is out there, and I I understand where it comes from. You know, it's it's I had high skepticism, high cynicism of of it. I think I don't think the the traditional agency model suited retail. I tried several times to outsource the work that I needed to agencies, and every time failed. I immediately regretted it. You'd engage with someone to do, you know, 20 hours of PPC for you, and the agency would sell themselves well, but then be very inflexible as how that 20 hours of PPC was delivered for you. And Yeah. Retail just doesn't work like that.

Chris Thomas [00:05:15]:
You have to be very agile. You have to be very responsive to what's going on around your competitor action. It could happen at any time, and you need to be fast moving on that on that front, and agencies just couldn't do that. So what the business evolved as was not really a we sold branded footwear, so I say I say Doctor. Martis, but Converse, UGG boots. Yeah. Anything any any high street branded footwear you know we sold at, on clogs.co.uk. But the business wasn't really a footwear specialist in its buying.

Chris Thomas [00:05:48]:
It was a specialist in its ecommerce. So I had big teams of SEOs, PPCs, team of web developers. We were an ecommerce business first and foremost. We were very good at being found online. So when I exited that business, it was that set of skills that I had. I had to manage an ecommerce team, not necessarily spotting the next big winner of a pair of companies. You know? Yeah. So it was that skill I took I took from from that business.

Richard Hill [00:06:17]:
And so fast forward, so you is it 8 8 years you've been in agency world?

Chris Thomas [00:06:22]:
Yeah. I say I started getting into it 2016. So

Richard Hill [00:06:25]:
So fast forward to today then, what does the agency look like now? So you you have a very, I think, specialist agency out. It would be fair to say. Yeah. So step us through the sort of, you know, your sort of USP and how important that's been, for the success of the agency.

Chris Thomas [00:06:41]:
Sure. Sure. I mean, as I say, agencies sort of found me. We when I was taking a bit of a hiatus from from work, a bit of a sabbatical, I was just helping friends out with their websites. Shopify was becoming an it wasn't an emerging technology. It'd been around for a few years already, but it was becoming a credible ecommerce platform.

Richard Hill [00:07:01]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:07:02]:
It was starting to break through with fast growing businesses, and the technology I thought that Shopify had was incredible. The the the previous business I had had a similar, web platform. It was called vendor.com. It was cloud based, software as a service website provision, and that's what we had. I loved that model. It meant I didn't have to be so, you know, involved with the mechanics of my website. It was provided for me. We could make it look pretty.

Chris Thomas [00:07:30]:
And Shopify used that model and reinvented it and came up with a web platform that was better and $40 to launch a website. So the the barrier to entry was just, like, suddenly incredible.

Richard Hill [00:07:43]:
Changed.

Chris Thomas [00:07:44]:
Yeah. That that changed the ecommerce market for small, medium businesses. The the barrier to entry to get in was now so accessible to everybody.

Richard Hill [00:07:51]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:07:52]:
So that was right at the point that I I left and was getting into agency just a agency land. And my first employee was a web developer who built Shopify websites. He's still with me today. And before I knew it, I was employing people to help support consultancy work. And then I just thought it'd be quite interesting to go, well, actually, I hate agencies. Can I create an agency for retailers that gets what it's like Yeah? To be a retailer on the front line

Richard Hill [00:08:22]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:08:23]:
With you? Yeah. And let me build a team of people who are your outsourced ecommerce team, who know what it's like on a Monday morning looking at trade for trade reports, looking at competitor action, and can use their bag of skills and tools to go, right, we need to be active here. We need to be doing that, very much through a retail lens. And that's that's the agency tagline. We're an agency founded by retailers for retailers. We I love it. Built a we built a customer base of predominantly fashion retailers, but actually it's transferable across a lot of retailers. We have a good bunch of retailers like gifting and the motor industry, who all had this challenge of growing a business online from managing their working capital, knowing that the stock's in the right place, then marrying that up with with demand.

Chris Thomas [00:09:11]:
And that's very much the life I led for 15, 16 years as a retailer that I I then put in print

Richard Hill [00:09:17]:
in the agency. So you've got that experience, which obviously resonates very much with the founders, marketers, or founders and and people responsible for the p and l at whoever you're speaking to. You've lived that. You've you've had it from both sides, and that's very clear on your branding and your messaging and your brand story looking at the website. So I would say that's, you know, that sort of very clear focus from the get go looking at your brand is, you know, very, very strong. You know, I think that's where quite a lot of agencies go wrong. They try and obviously try and do too many things. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:09:52]:
But, obviously, when you get to a certain size, I think you soon realize that, you know, you're spinning too many plates and maybe not great at all those things. Whereas very, very focused agency, seems to be, you know, quite a a thread of the conversations I've I'm having, during this journey in the podcast.

Chris Thomas [00:10:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. Niche ing down is is a really important part of it, particularly, I think, with the emergence of technologies like Shopify, it's a double edged sword. It it, one, gives you something to build a service proposition around, but then it also gives lots of other agencies the gateway into being Shopify agency. Like, we were we were one of a handful of Shopify agencies, I mean, notes in the 7 2017, 2018, 2019. Now the landscape is full of Shopify partners and Shopify agencies that are that are out there, so you do have to niche down into what makes you unique.

Richard Hill [00:10:44]:
Yeah. But don't get

Chris Thomas [00:10:45]:
me wrong. When we first started, it was a case of, you know, let's get clients.

Richard Hill [00:10:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. Let's get

Chris Thomas [00:10:51]:
cash flow. Let's get some case studies. Yeah. And it was across the board. But, yeah, certainly over over time, it's been a case of, let's make that proposition. And, you know, it is quite unique. You know, many Shopify owners that I I meet and friends with, creatives that got into it or marketeers that got into it or developers that got into it, and they they they then broaden out to ecommerce, whereas I can't think of any anyone who's a a former

Richard Hill [00:11:18]:
previous retailer. Yeah. No. I think that is unique. I I would say I'm not I'm not aware of any, and we've done, you know, we're closing on 200 episodes of our podcast. So I think you are right.

Chris Thomas [00:11:29]:
So I got I got I have to mark some Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:11:32]:
And I love that. And I think, you know, key takeaway there for the listeners is that sort of brand story, that uniqueness, that focus, that absolute niche down. Obviously, a a Shopify plus agency owned and operated by a a very experienced retailer. So Yeah. That's probably key first takeaway. So, obviously, you've got that experience, you know, from you know, we're going back some time. You've seen it from back in the day when it was a you know, it probably cost tens of 1,000 to build a website back in back in the day, and then now you might say $40 or whatever it is for Shopify, and obviously then you go Shopify Plus and so forth. And Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:12:08]:
You know, so, things have changed considerably. You've got all that experience, but, obviously, building a successful agency takes a few of the levers that need to be focused on around around the sales, the staffing. You know, what are maybe three core areas that you're focused on now? What what are the three things as an agency owner that you're sort of very focused on?

Chris Thomas [00:12:30]:
Yeah. Sure. It took me a long time to work out the agency model. So, I mean, I I say I'm a retailer in my in my skin. You know, I I get working capital, merchandising of stock where where where my attention needs to be focused. Shifting that into agency, I I did find quite jarring for a few years. It took me a while to work it out. And the equivalence to to me was sort of actually my stock is my staff.

Chris Thomas [00:13:00]:
And I need to make sure my staff are well trained. I need to make sure they're looked after, and they're happy here. They're the people I'm selling, and I need to make sure that they are happy here and Yeah. I'm investing in them and their careers. So that was a bit of a penny dropping moment for me to kind of understand that the success of the agency will be limited, or pro and promoted by my ability to retain talent and

Richard Hill [00:13:24]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:13:25]:
Help help help them grow. So I've very much had that as a focus over, you know, the last 3 or 4 years. The agency tagline that we use as a I guess, one of the the 4 retailers for retailers kind of motto is innovate, deliver delight. So those are kind of 3 aspects of the agency that we are religiously working on together to make sure that we're keeping ourselves sharp. You know, what are we innovating each year? How are we delivering on our promises? And how are we making sure that when those promises land, our clients are delighted.

Richard Hill [00:13:57]:
Yeah. But

Chris Thomas [00:13:57]:
then also, you know, turning that backwards in on ourselves as well. There's some personal perspective. How how are we innovating us ourselves? How are we upskilling our our skill base each year? What training are we doing?

Richard Hill [00:14:10]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:14:11]:
How are we making sure that we don't just put that as a sentiment? We do deliver it from year to year. Yeah. And that we're happy with the journey that we take, and we're delighted to have us ourselves. So we we have that those two kind of pathways that we that we do focus on as a and we have kind of frameworks that we we deliver those against and are checking

Richard Hill [00:14:31]:
rate I guess, going back to the staff piece, you know, if you're if you know, I completely agree. You know, you're you're innovative. You're not just saying it as a thing on your website to, you know, generate business. Ultimately, you've got and you're trying to attract and retain key members of staff now when they've been there a year, 2, or 3 years. You you said your guy start with you, still with you, obviously, to retain those people. Yeah. Innovation, changing things, and and trying things, and and testing things is not just a way to, you know, have successful clients, but, obviously, it's a it's a it's a great place to work, isn't it? And it's it's Yeah. Somewhere where strong people are gonna wanna be, which is key to retaining.

Richard Hill [00:15:13]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:15:14]:
No. Absolutely. I I remember now the the feeling of recruiting my first 2 or 3 members of staff. We were a start up agency, and these were bright people with you know, coming out from university, looking for careers in Birmingham, Yeah. Of which there's lots of opportunities. And I remember taking the punt on coming to work for me, and there was Yeah. Yeah. We're a startup.

Chris Thomas [00:15:35]:
You know, we haven't got any clients. Yeah. Are you sure you're Yeah. And the kind of it it was quite emotional, actually. The the, yeah, the sentiment that they were putting that faith in me, and they were gonna go, yeah. We'll back you to to grow this business. And, you know, employee 1 and employee 2 are actually still with me. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:15:51]:
That's great. And I've always just thought to myself, like, if they were willing to do that for me, I've got to make sure I'm doing that. I don't want that this to be a transient career move for you. You're just getting a job, and in 6 months' time, you'll look for the next best ship. I want you to come to this business and wanna be here in 10 years' time. I don't want you to feel like this is a this is a short term thing. So yeah. And I guess that is some testament to how we then try to structure it.

Chris Thomas [00:16:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. But constantly trying to be evolving. Yeah. Evolution, not revolution. Yeah. Let's incrementally together make make the step forwards.

Richard Hill [00:16:26]:
So do you have a how do you structure your so you've got the team. Obviously, you've you've met you're in a a big city, you know, or and that's can be great, but, obviously, there's a lot more opportunity for for for team members, but there's also a lot more opportunity for you to attract more team members. So do you do you run, like, traction, for example, at EOS, where you're getting the team together on a and and and run through the vision and the 1 year plan, the 3 year plan, and so forth to get buy in, to get commitment, and get them to work with you to build that. But how do you sort of, Yeah. Sort of get that across the team?

Chris Thomas [00:17:02]:
Yeah. Employee engagement is is really important, to get that kind of trust going both ways, so we we have regular company updates. Our kickoff one is a week on Friday, where we'll be sharing the company vision for the year Yep. Ideas, how it's evolved from last year. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:17:22]:
I'm So you wait so you wait for the previous year to end. We'll get the financials so you know where you are, so you know what you're able to do maybe. So you've got that sort of beginning of January to collate and get the management accounts or end of year done, know where you are. And then January back of January, you're planning more so or confirming the plan then presenting that plan in February to the team.

Chris Thomas [00:17:43]:
Yeah. Exactly. We do we do quarterly updates, but we have a big one in January. So the the the the Jan well, I'm sorry. It'll be 1st week of Feb, but, the the kickoff one at the start of the year is the big one, and we have an away day. And it's a company presentation in the morning from the leaders of the business

Richard Hill [00:18:02]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:18:02]:
And then breakout sessions and then team building exercises after. So it's it's a it's a full on event, and we're we're quite generous with the information that we share. You know? We Yeah. We go into quite a lot of detail about profitability and where we're doing well, what we need to work on so they can understand where that firstly, where their hard efforts, what it's manifesting, in terms of position of the

Richard Hill [00:18:23]:
business. Yep.

Chris Thomas [00:18:25]:
And then, you know, what are the areas that where what are the zones that we need to turn over in order to make it even better. We we have a takes a month to get ready for the February update because we we go through something called black box thinking, which is a, you know, a a great framework that Matthew Saeed wrote a book on a few years back, which is one of the first business books I read called Black Black Box Thinking, which is all about how you go into how you understand failure obviously comes from the the aviation industry, but embracing failure Yeah. So that never happens again and that you get better. Learn. It's a great business is a great business principle. So we we have black box sessions in the business that filter at every level that filters its way up into the higher echelons, and then that's all digested during January, which we've just gone through. And that gets Yeah. Kind of then processed into a what

Richard Hill [00:19:18]:
How how many years have you been have you have you been running that process where you do a full company update? Is it a more recent thing? Or

Chris Thomas [00:19:25]:
I've I've done company updates since day 1. Yeah. It's it's become a more substantial thing Yeah. Probably since we got back from lockdown. So last 2 or 3 years, it's become an event as opposed to me sharing information.

Richard Hill [00:19:37]:
So you say away date so that you're aware you booked somewhere that's obviously not the office, so you spend the day there and turn it into a you know, it's a nice event. Yep. Or a nice hotel or something, or and you you stay over? Or

Chris Thomas [00:19:50]:
We haven't stayed over, but we've we've done, like, canoeing down the canals

Richard Hill [00:19:55]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:19:55]:
And Yeah. You know, bowling and escape rooms, and Yeah. It's always there's a lot on our doorstep which we're very fortunate about. So Yeah. And, yeah, they're all all local, so it's yeah. The requirement for for stopovers isn't isn't necessarily there. Although we have started talking about doing, like, an away weekend team building weekend this year Yeah. But it hasn't, come to full plans yet.

Chris Thomas [00:20:18]:
But

Richard Hill [00:20:18]:
yeah. Yeah. No. I love that. I'll have to have a look at the the black box thinking. That's not something long from I've got actually that book called that that that process. So, yeah, that sounds fantastic. We've quite a lot of leaders that we speak to, sort of run seem to run quite a lot of the traction and the EOS methodology.

Richard Hill [00:20:36]:
Okay. But, yeah, I love that sort of, getting the team together, obviously, getting them on board. Yeah. You know, getting them to be involved in that process. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:20:44]:
I have, like, ask me anything questions as well, so they they can do there's always a session where they can just, like, what is on your mind? Talk to me about it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's a it's a very much kind of an open policy, honesty policy of just like Yeah. Yeah. You know, if we could be forthright with the information and honest with what we're telling you, then I don't mind you asking me anything you want about payroll, inflation, cost of living. Just ask me, and I'll tell you what we can do.

Richard Hill [00:21:07]:
So question then, do are you open with everyone's salary? Does everybody know what everybody earns to the penny?

Chris Thomas [00:21:14]:
Not not to the penny, but we do give a lot of transparency around bandings, and we help people understand the entry levels for bandings, where you can get up to within that band, and then what are the mechanics by which you get to the next band. So we Yeah. We have done that. That was a big piece of work we did about 18 months ago with local recruiters to get established what this band should look like Yeah. And share that with the team. So everyone, you know, will have a sense of what everyone else is

Richard Hill [00:21:43]:
doing

Chris Thomas [00:21:43]:
because they're in some tier.

Richard Hill [00:21:44]:
They're on a particular band. There's, like, Matrix. They know that they've gotta be able to do x y zed to move to that next band. So then, obviously, they can turn the next, you know, months or year. So to to work on those skills, you're invested in them to move through the bandings and then the various promotions. Yeah. No. I like that a lot.

Richard Hill [00:22:02]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think we'll talk about, new business. You know? I think that's, we're sitting here towards the beginning of the year, and I think it's no secret that the back of last year was quite challenging, I think, for retailers. Not all retailers and agencies, a little bit. So what are some what are some of the things that you're doing in terms of new business to get new business over the line?

Chris Thomas [00:22:30]:
Yeah. We for us, I would say the back end of 2022 was the challenging time for us. We because we predominantly I don't know whether we were out of sync because we work, again, predominantly with retailers, but I one of my, you know, feelings as a retailer is we were always first in, first out of difficult economic times. You know, the retailers always felt the pinch first and Yeah. But we're always the first to then get out of it. And I I felt like back in the 2022 was a challenge for my clients that manifest itself to, to us at the back end, then. So we we kind of were doing the black box thinking around these challenges at the start of last year and what we needed to do to change it. So I think we then had a much better 2023 as a result of kind of maybe hitting some of those those challenges, earlier in the earlier in the cycle.

Chris Thomas [00:23:22]:
But we we stopped we stopped chasing any type of business or or or retailer. We we as we said at the start, it was about niching into a very particular Yeah. Channel for us. It was about growing our existing clients that that were doing well, and your next best new client is the growth of an existing, not necessarily someone who's new new. So we spent a lot of time just making sure we were delivering and helping them grow because

Richard Hill [00:23:52]:
for existing. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:23:53]:
Yeah. For, yeah, for new business. We changed our CRM system, which was a bit of a game changer

Richard Hill [00:23:58]:
for us Okay.

Chris Thomas [00:23:59]:
In the summer.

Richard Hill [00:24:01]:
Well, what's your what's the tech style looking like there?

Chris Thomas [00:24:04]:
Well, so we we've been on HubSpot for years trying to make HubSpot work, and it I just found HubSpot way too expensive, really clunky. Yeah. I think it's geared at much bigger businesses, and they've tried to break into, like, small business kind of ecosystem. It just doesn't

Richard Hill [00:24:19]:
You just couldn't when you start adding those seats. It gets very expensive. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:24:22]:
It it gets very expensive across the board. It's just like you it becomes too cumbersome to work properly. We changed to a serum called copper. Yep. Copper CRM which was really well integrated with Gmail. It's part of the Google Workspace ecosystem.

Richard Hill [00:24:40]:
Yep.

Chris Thomas [00:24:40]:
And that freed up a new approach to our CRM that we hadn't had previously in terms of reactivation flows and just comms with the existing clients. So we were able to really up our game from CRM point of view, and improve our outbound marketing from there. We we've been quite fortunate. We don't have to do much outbound. It's it's mainly referral led.

Richard Hill [00:25:05]:
Do you do any events, like, locally, like in or different, like obviously, you you say the majority of your clients are sort of fashion and re obviously, retail as well. You know, retailers. Do you do sort of fashion specific, niche specific, events or niche specific, campaigns yourself?

Chris Thomas [00:25:20]:
We we put a lot of effort into events 2022 Mhmm. 20 mid 2023.

Richard Hill [00:25:29]:
Mhmm.

Chris Thomas [00:25:29]:
We were probably running an event a month. We had a we have a few we had a few different brands. There's a there's a meetup. There was a a social circle event and a We Are Girl Code event that we kind of run every 3 months, but Yeah. It was one of one of those events a month. We just found it very hard work to it didn't actually drive that much new business. We had a good attendance, always good engagement with it, but just the actual tangible output from it was was quite was quite hard to measure.

Richard Hill [00:25:59]:
Mhmm.

Chris Thomas [00:26:00]:
So we're kind of rethinking what the event strategy should look like. We still attend a lot of events in the industry, so, yeah, we do regular events down in London and and so on. But in terms of, gearing our own and leading our own events, we're kind of going back to the drawing board with it. So, yeah, it it it it was it was a difficult Yes.

Richard Hill [00:26:22]:
But it seems that investment

Chris Thomas [00:26:24]:
and time could necessarily pay off in the way it wants it to.

Richard Hill [00:26:28]:
Yeah. I think that's a good that's, yeah, that's an interesting one. I think I'm seeing a lot more agencies doing events, Yeah. But I think more so because to go and, exhibit at some of the bigger events, it's tens of 1,000 of pounds. So I think, hang on. We'll do our own event. But it is quite tricky. Events can be quite quite a tricky one.

Richard Hill [00:26:49]:
You know, getting getting people on getting the bums on seats to start with is quite challenging, but then it's getting the right bums on seats is even more challenging sort of thing. So

Chris Thomas [00:26:56]:
Yeah. And they're very unlikely to be in a position to buy, and Yeah. Buying cycle is very long. So how Yeah. Marry up whether someone saw you at an event or attended it Yeah. And and they came back to you? I it's really a trade off of time for me. I found that we were investing a lot of time across the agency in preparing for and delivering the events. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:27:17]:
And that time could be so much better spent on clients and personal PR. And that for me is the is the it's just keep to those principles.

Richard Hill [00:27:30]:
So personal PR for yourself, you mean? Like, for for that reason, your business.

Chris Thomas [00:27:33]:
Yeah. And and staff. Yeah. We've encouraged the staff to tell us what they want to achieve from a personal PR perspective. Yep. And get them more active on LinkedIn or get them more active going to events or give their giving them authorship of white papers and case studies and blogs. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:27:48]:
That's right. Feel proud

Chris Thomas [00:27:49]:
to then circulate it. I think that sort of grassroots PR is better, has a better payoff and on both sides than Yeah. Events. And it's, I I I like the idea of doing this because it does keep you sharp. It does make it does force you to get materials together and presentations together, but I don't think it necessarily has to be the frequency which we're trying to run. And I think, you know, a bigger event less frequently is the way we'll approach it in the future.

Richard Hill [00:28:19]:
Yeah. No. I mean, I think that's great. So new business, revenue generation, you sort of changed a few different things, but a a big focus on, retention, obviously, keeping clients, long term, which goes without saying. What are some other when you get into the sort of brass tacks of that, you know, you talk about innovation, and innovation, no doubt, lead leads to retaining team, retaining clients. But on the actual coalface day to day, what does that look like, you know, in terms of the active things that you're doing to retain and and impress the clients?

Chris Thomas [00:28:55]:
Yeah. So I I say to the guys, downstairs that if if a client ever comes to ask us for a product, we've done something wrong. I want us to be 2 steps ahead of where their heads are. So we've got to be thinking about where their business is heading and what it's doing either from a successful point of view and then we've gotta be thinking about what the next marketing style they're gonna want is. Yep. Or if a tactic isn't working, what can we be suggesting before the client knows it's not working? So if we're challenging ourselves that way, we are thinking of the products and services they need from us before Yeah. The client knows they need it.

Richard Hill [00:29:37]:
So you're very proactive.

Chris Thomas [00:29:39]:
We're very proactive about it. We will have again, we'll have, war rooms Yeah. Have scale up sessions.

Richard Hill [00:29:47]:
Are there the clients in some of those, or you are you doing these without the client and then, obviously, then same ride The clients say we

Chris Thomas [00:29:54]:
do them. Yeah. Yeah. The clients say we do them, but we do them on our own, and we feedback to them what we feel like we we should be doing as objectives in the next quarter.

Richard Hill [00:30:03]:
War Room. That sounds serious.

Chris Thomas [00:30:05]:
Yeah. War Rooms came came as the terminology through the pandemic, and it kinda just stuck as

Richard Hill [00:30:13]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:30:13]:
You know, why is our version of everyone getting together to work out how we get through this? And Yeah. Said, like, let's have, like, these Churchillian war rooms where we just get together and work out what the what the battle plan is. Nobody leaps. Nobody leaps until until we work out what the what the plan is. Yeah. And that name kind of stuck. And then we changed it to scale obsessions because of Yeah. It sounded too serious.

Chris Thomas [00:30:33]:
But but Yeah. Yeah. But they were but they worked really well. They it's a safe space. Right? Everyone anyone can say anything, and it's no criticism of anything we've done in the past. If you should but if it's just not working, it's just not working. We're gonna find out why.

Richard Hill [00:30:46]:
No. I think that's great. I think that's a real takeaway for the listeners. You know? You you've no doubt. You're doing x amount of 100, dollars, or 1,000, or a a million or 2 as an agency depending on, you know, who's listening, but, ultimately, retaining those clients and working with them, you know, to take them from, you know, their million to their 50,000,000. What the opportunity for your agency is just massive. I think that just get lost a lot. A lot of agencies that are trying to say break the million.

Richard Hill [00:31:13]:
For example, in turnover, you know, I see, know, too much of a focus on acquisition, not enough focus on innovating. Like you're saying, innovating equals retention. Yes. The old clients know you're doing a war room for them literally every quarter or, you know, a a, scale up session, you know, which just say that out loud, it's obvious you should be doing things like that. You know, we're looking for opportunities, different different markets, different platforms, different avenues to launch their products, trying different things.

Chris Thomas [00:31:40]:
Yeah. Yes. I I want I want clients to fundamentally know that we've got their back.

Richard Hill [00:31:45]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:31:45]:
And we will be we might not be writing you an email, you might not be on a phone call with us, but behind the scenes, we're working on your problem, and Yeah. We are genuinely working on your problem. And this this is how it manifests itself, and, you will proactively get this sort of feedback from us. We will challenge some of the things that you think you should be doing.

Richard Hill [00:32:07]:
I think that's quite an important one, isn't it? You know, obviously, challenging them and sort of, hang on a minute. Actually, know, obviously, business owners and and senior marketeers can be quite headstrong, shall we say, and they've got their ideas, you know, and they're they're familiar with their what they're seeing, and that's great.

Chris Thomas [00:32:23]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:32:23]:
But, obviously, you've got a in theory and should have a wider lens on everything as, you're looking after a lot of brands maybe in a certain industry or just seeing patterns and what's working and, oh, this has changed in x y zed, TikTok, this, that, and the other or whatever

Chris Thomas [00:32:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Platform you're focused on for the

Richard Hill [00:32:39]:
clients, obviously, that can transition across. Yeah. Platform you're focused on for other clients, obviously, that can transition across. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, we found a similar a very similar sort of pattern in that, you know, the real good clients. So we've got, you know, the real sort of, if you like, the the ones that are are just a real good fit, really progressive, you know, working with them deeper, and then ultimately been able to do more for them, which is win win for both of us. Yeah?

Chris Thomas [00:33:04]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And our clients are our best marketing tool at the end of the day as well. So if if we are if we are delighting them, if we're growing them, they'll give us the great testimonials. They'll they'll refer people in. It's it's a very kind of self sufficient, self satisfying Yeah. You know, self fulfilling, sorry, process. So Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:33:26]:
You you absolutely and I think we've been there in terms of acquisition as well. There's early years it's like acquire, acquire, acquire it,

Richard Hill [00:33:31]:
but Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:33:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and you you have to recompose your client base as you go because when you when you're acquiring in that in that pace, it's there's, you know, there's inevitably places where it just doesn't fit. The partnership doesn't work, and you've gotta recompose your client base to be, yeah, the fitness working across across both sides. And,

Richard Hill [00:33:54]:
then as you get to the Yeah. When you're works. Yeah. You're you're scaling. You begin. Yeah. You take anything, I think, is the reality of life, you know, when you're starting. Within reason, I'll put my hand up and say, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:34:04]:
We did, you know, back in the day. You know? And, but, obviously, the idea would be to build in a way that you're finding the the the type of clients that you like to work with, you can perform better for, you can help more, you know, and, obviously, targeting those with your messaging like you are. So you're attracting those more perfect fit, those ICPs that are, and then, obviously, ultimately selling them more. You know? And it's a win win for both sides. Yeah. Yeah. So how well do you sleep at night?

Chris Thomas [00:34:38]:
Good question. I sleep I sleep really well now. Yeah. It it wasn't always I've worked I have worked really hard at sleeping better. I I know it's Yeah. I've I've been on a bit on a bit of a kind of life journey, I I would say, since I turned 40 a few years ago and understanding what I need to do to improve myself physically and mentally to be a better person, a healthier person. Yeah. And sleep was one of the things I identified straight away was I was terrible at.

Richard Hill [00:35:14]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:35:14]:
And I had very disruptive sleep. Worry all the worries of being a business owner. Yeah. Not necessarily worries, but just active mind. You know? You just Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:35:22]:
Yeah. Thinking. Yeah. You are. Yeah. To shut

Chris Thomas [00:35:25]:
off. Yeah. 3 o'clock in the morning, New Year Day pops in. Yeah. You're just obsessed about that for the next 3 hours till you wake up. It's it's very, very difficult. So, yeah, I've worked quite hard at bedtime routine to sleep better at night, and and, it definitely you see the improvements, the the health benefits from it.

Richard Hill [00:35:43]:
Have you got any sort of go to, like, routines? Are you big on sort of, you know, no tech before the last couple of hours of going to bed or half an hour maybe? Or you're a bit of a do you do your sort of any sort of fitness routines in an evening, try and switch off, or have you got any sort of personal routines that that work well for you?

Chris Thomas [00:36:01]:
Yeah. I've I've I've attacked on a few freights. What what is, like, no caffeine after 4 o'clock in the afternoon, although that's probably still a bit too late, but I was drinking cups of tea till quite late in the past. Yeah. Giving up the tech before bed has been the hardest one because I'm just there's interesting information on my phone, not necessarily checking emails. I'm quite Yeah. Turning off emails and stuff, but there's just interesting stuff to read online and Yeah. So on.

Chris Thomas [00:36:24]:
But that's that's been that's been the toughest one to get rid of. The best thing I did is stop watching streaming dramas before I go to bed. That sounds crazy, but, like It's one more hour. It's one more episode. Or if you binge if you binge Breaking Bad or Yeah. It never ends. Or something, it's just they're absolutely brilliant and engrossing dramas, but then your head's just awake with it for the rest of that. So I've I've cut out watching TV programs, and that's been the biggest change.

Chris Thomas [00:36:56]:
So that quietens the mind down, and then reading, yeah, reading something on my phone, things like that. I'm naturally

Richard Hill [00:37:01]:
reader of actual physical books, or you're more of a Yeah. Kindle on your phone?

Chris Thomas [00:37:06]:
I'm deaf definitely a reader of physical books. Like, I Yeah. I'm deaf I'm I'm from that generation pre Devices. I love the feel of a physical book, breaking the back, you know, seeing your progress go through it.

Richard Hill [00:37:20]:
Yeah. That's it like a good one that's 100%. 100%.

Chris Thomas [00:37:27]:
I I I read I read several books here.

Richard Hill [00:37:29]:
Yeah. No. I think that seems to be a common trait with, a lot of people we've spoken to. I think there's always, as always, whether that's, you know, a, a personal development, you know, thousands to go out, whether that's the latest SEO edition of the SEO, the art of SEO, or whether that's a very Shopify, blah blah blah. There's always always almost too much, isn't there? So you do have to be careful where you put you put your focus. So I'd like to end with a couple of maybe practical, tips from you and sort of resources, you know, in terms of, like, your tech stack at your agency. You talked about copper for on your CRM. What other things are you using in your agency that you sort of could have lived without?

Chris Thomas [00:38:10]:
So we are we are just, again, the the big kind of tech improvement last year was was our was our was our copper CRM. Yeah. The rest of our tech stack was held together or had had grown very organically, let's say, from lots of other different things. Oh, we need somebody to do that. We need somebody to do that. We need somebody to do that. We need someone to do that. We Slack Asana and Notion.

Richard Hill [00:38:38]:
So you're you're using Asana

Chris Thomas [00:38:40]:
still? We're retiring Asana. It's it's, is is where where where we where we actually come to harvest for time tracking and, you know, there there was just a whole bunch of tech that we were using across the board that was good when we first deployed it for a specific need, but as the agency was growing and so on, it was just coming way, way too cumbersome. So we're actually with the we've our operations manager is, Fran has done some scoping for the last 3 or 4 months of all different techs that are out there, what the plan is for 2024, and, she's come to, a view that a lot of these things are gonna retire and gonna be replaced with a a platform called Teamwork. Yep. Yep. So we're using we're just on the in the process of retiring a lot of that

Richard Hill [00:39:29]:
stuff and teamwork. So teamwork does the time tracking, does the project management, does the comps, does the files, etcetera. Yeah. All that sort of It's interesting. What is it? You you you're sort of that journey of, oh, this new thing. 2 years later, no one's using that thing. And I found it Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:39:47]:
About Honestly, that would that's that's and usually, you you accumulate you you you collect all these monthly SaaS charges at, like Yeah. $15 a month per user for this, $15 worth the endpoint Yeah. £7,000 a month. And you think, well, hang on a second. I don't know about our control or more. So we both had to we go through it periodically. To some extent, I don't mind trialing all these different things. It's that that's the way you discover it.

Chris Thomas [00:40:11]:
But, yeah, periodically, you've gotta go kinda draw a line under it and go Yeah. Who's actually getting news out of this, and what do we need to to do as a result? So, yeah, Teamwork is gonna be the 20 24th.

Richard Hill [00:40:21]:
Oh, interesting. I'll have to, have a catch up with you in, 6, 12 months. Yeah. Getting on with Teamwork.

Chris Thomas [00:40:27]:
Yeah. Hopefully hopefully, yeah, we've got on top of it, and it's it's working.

Richard Hill [00:40:30]:
Yeah. So Well, thanks, Chris. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. Last couple of quick questions. So what are your sort of maybe couple of focuses for the next 12 months?

Chris Thomas [00:40:43]:
Well, it's it's to continue on the vein of, of innovation, really. I I think we we were very good at the delivering and delighting last year, particularly with the kind of view of growing existing clients and and delivering on promises and so on. I I think there's a lot of innovation going around, and there's maybe a better catch up for us to do on that front. So, yeah, we're really looking at a product launch timeline for 2024 with a bit more clarity than we perhaps looked at in the past, so we've got some really great things

Richard Hill [00:41:14]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:41:15]:
That we're gonna be launching in March, actually, with one of our clients, but you can stay tuned for that product launch. But, yeah, they're really kind of trying to lead the way on new products we're offering as an agency and so on. So Yeah. We've also got a a sister agency that we've just launched, which I remissably not to mention, but Yeah. Pie Financial, it's baked goods sister, is is now a focus for the agency in 2024, so where Cake supports businesses, from an ecommerce perspective, Pie we've launched Pie to help with management accounting. So I actually started before I went online. As I I mentioned at the start, I started training as

Richard Hill [00:41:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:41:58]:
As an account so I've always been on top of the companies. Yeah. And and being a on top of management accounting information, I have a lot of clients with it already. Yeah. But we've launched Pie to help our clients get their books in order

Richard Hill [00:42:11]:
and Yeah. That was brilliant.

Chris Thomas [00:42:13]:
Prepare management accounts, help them raise funds, and that's headed up by a great MD called Julie Bailey, who's joined me in that in that business with a great M and A background.

Richard Hill [00:42:23]:
Yeah. Well, that is when that's live. We'll we'll tag that up because I'm a massive believer in, in sort of, manage monthly management. Yeah. When when you can get when you're at a point, obviously, it varies on ages to ages, but, obviously, ideally, monthly managements. But if you're not doing any management, start with quarterly managements and go from there. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:42:42]:
No. I will take that up. Well, thanks, Chris. I like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?

Chris Thomas [00:42:49]:
I'll give you 2 quick ones. No? Best best business book I've read. This business biography is Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. Yeah. Read that last summer, picked it up, couldn't put it down.

Richard Hill [00:43:00]:
Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:43:01]:
Business biographies go, that is a really great set of concepts and and, yeah, approaches to how to keep a business successful, and, obviously, his success is, is second to none, really. The book I'm reading at the moment that I would also recommend is Outlive by Peter Attia, which is a it is a health book on how to improve yourself physically and mentally and is all about longevity and health span. But I see it as a business book. You know? Mhmm. Looking after yourself and make yourself a better physical person, is all about making sure you're a better athlete to perform as a business person. So those 2 different diet angles Yeah. Book recommendations, but out in there for me is one that is just every page I'm reading at the moment is just, it's just eye opening, and I wish I could share it with everybody. So

Richard Hill [00:43:50]:
Yeah. So thank you for that. Yeah. No. That's gonna be, ordered in about 20 seconds, I'll live here, man. That sounds right up my street as well. Well, thanks, Chris. For those who wanna find out more about you, more about the agency, and and the, other projects, what's the best way to do that?

Chris Thomas [00:44:05]:
Yeah. So I'm on I'm on LinkedIn, so you can you can you can find me on there, Christopher Thomas, and, yeah, a cake or dos agency. So

Richard Hill [00:44:15]:
Brilliant. Well, thanks for coming on the show. Let me check this out. I look forward to speaking to you again.

Chris Thomas [00:44:18]:
Lovely. Thanks for having me on, Richard. Thank you.

Richard Hill [00:44:23]:
If If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.