E19: Anthony Barone

Richard Hill [00:00:00]:
Hi, I'm Richard Hill. Welcome back to Agency Intensive. Today I'm joined by Anthony Barone, co-founder of Studio Hawk and the person responsible for building and scaling their UK operation. Anthony's story isn't the usual agency narrative. He started in hospitality, fell into SEO almost by accident, and went on to grow Studio Hawk into a global specialist agency spanning Australia, the UK, and the US. We cover how Anthony helped scale Studio Hawk from a small team to a multi-location global agency with over 100 people. Why niche focus in SEO creates leverage in sales, partnerships, and positioning. And of course, how and what they're doing with AI and LLMs and how they're reshaping SEO and why the fundamentals matter more than ever.

Richard Hill [00:00:52]:
This is a grounded, honest conversation about growth, mistakes, and building an agency that lasts. Now, before we dive in, I just want to quickly thank our sponsor, AristoSourcing, for sponsoring this episode. We've been using AristoSourcing for my team building needs, from customer service, executive assistants, admin support, to digital marketing specialists, and they're a great partner for agencies looking to scale without the recruitment hassle of the more traditional methods. We decided to partner with them after seeing firsthand how their team have helped me and my teams grow efficiently. Over the past 18 months with reliable, skilled professionals who actually deliver. If you're ready to build your dream team, head to aristosourcing.com and find out more. We put the link in the description so you can go straight ahead and check it out. That being said, let's dive straight into this episode.

Richard Hill [00:01:42]:
Welcome to the Agency Intensive podcast, and I'm looking forward to having a chat all things agency. And all things SEO, agency building, scaling, and SEO agency. So I think before we get into it, it'd be great for you to introduce yourself and how you got into the world of agencies.

Anthony Barone [00:02:02]:
Thank you very much, Richard. So hello everyone. I'm Anthony from Studio Hawk. We're an SEO-only agency based in London, originally from Australia. So I moved here 6 and a half years ago to the UK to start the UK arm. And I just fell into the agency world, started off as a junior back in Melbourne at the start of 2018. After coming from the hospitality world. And 7 years later, or actually 8 years later, I'm running an agency in one of the hardest markets in the world.

Anthony Barone [00:02:30]:
Blimey.

Richard Hill [00:02:31]:
So how, I mean, that doesn't just happen, surely, you know, you, so you're in hospitality, you know, that's a, quite, quite a trajectory, isn't it? Moving from hospitality to, to running SEO campaigns. Were you doing some SEO in the background sort of thing, or did you just sort of start, or had you been doing some stuff? You know, how did you get into SEO specifically? Specifically?

Anthony Barone [00:02:50]:
No, I did nothing. I worked at a, I worked in hospitality, so I worked at a pub for 6 years, um, ending at the start of 2018. I worked at a nightclub at the time I'd started Studio Hawk, and I worked at a, and I volunteered at a football club at the same time back in Melbourne. And I just fell into it because Studio Hawk has started by, um, Harry Sanders, who started as a, as a, as a 17-year-old, and I met him, uh, when he was 21, and he was looking for a 3-day-a-week part-time junior to train SEO. And I was like, well, I don't know what that is, but as far as I'm aware, it's online, it's digital. That'll be around for the next 10 years is my thinking. And, um, it's a good skill to learn. I don't have to go to university.

Anthony Barone [00:03:32]:
So I was like, took him up on it. I learned, I read, I spent extra hours. I was probably no good at it. I definitely was no good at it for the first 6 months, but persevered with it, learned. And as we started to build the agency, build the team, we ended 2018 from 2 of us to about 12 of us and 100 clients. And it just skyrocketed in 2018. So I did, I'm one of the rare, probably not rare ones, but I fell into, I fell into SEO.

Richard Hill [00:03:57]:
Wow. So that sentence, you went from basically you and a, you and your colleague and then 12 people, 100 clients, literally. And this, how does that, that doesn't just happen, does it really?

Anthony Barone [00:04:11]:
No. So Harry had been running it on his own for about 2 years previously and built up, built up brand equity, built up a bit of rep. When I joined, we had about 20 clients under the belt and I was there just to take care of admin, learn the basics of SEO, help out with reports while Harry did a lot of the sales and the higher level tasks and went to go. And this was before COVID So we were doing a lot of in-person meetings, driving to, driving to clients. And just, I just learned from the ground up. And then bit by bit, we hired Lawrence, who was the GM for 5 years and now working as the chief of staff a couple of months after me. And then we slowly just started adding more and more juniors because of the way we're structured. Harry was able to do more business development.

Anthony Barone [00:04:52]:
And while we kept learning SEO and keeping the, keep the fires burning at home and bit by bit, we started to build a reputation. And then by the end of 2018, Harry had won the SEMrush Rising Star Award and a couple of SEMrush awards in Australia and just started to take off.

Richard Hill [00:05:10]:
So you'd say that sort of, um, was like a key moment then, a key sort of pivotal moment when Harry won maybe those awards, or was there other sort of key things around that time that sort of snowballed and compounded?

Anthony Barone [00:05:23]:
The other key thing was by bringing us on as juniors in training and the way Studiohawk is built is mostly by bringing in people like myself who are at a crossroads and have done retail or hospitality, those fast-paced sort of jobs and bring your son to learn. Well, it freed up Harry to do the networking and freed up Harry to meet people and really supercharge that. In addition to bringing on more people like myself, we also had to do sales and try and get referrals as well as learning SEO. So instead of just having one salesman, we had the team also doing sales, which then led us to get that level of clientele. And also the level of clientele we're talking about here is we like to start with smaller SME businesses. So for example, at that time we were doing $500 campaigns to $1,000 campaigns, $2,000 campaigns, which are easier to sign. And this is, we're talking 2018 here. So it's a bit easier to sign as a specialist SEO agency that just we did that, we didn't have any other services to sell, so it was easier to focus just on that.

Anthony Barone [00:06:27]:
And that's how we started to build it. It just allowed Harry the time to go out there, plus we learned how to talk to people and go to events and how to do networking and do all of that stuff as well.

Richard Hill [00:06:38]:
Yeah, so you were doing a bit of everything then back in the day. Is it still more like that then? You sort of, um, split between the delivery, training, and helping the team and obviously sales and speaking, you still very much sort of split or do you have a focus more so now of one or two lines?

Anthony Barone [00:06:56]:
So the focus now, Australia is still a bit like that, but they've now got a dedicated sales team and growth and like they're now 70 people and 400 clients. It's, they're one of the biggest independents in Australia. So it's a different kettle of fish. For me in the UK, I came to a relatively quick realization that look, I moved here with no business experience. I had 18 months SEO experience. I moved here in August of 2019, just before Corona. I'd never run a lemonade stand. I'd never really run a team and I'd only signed a couple of clients in Australia.

Anthony Barone [00:07:25]:
So I really got thrown into the deep end coming into the UK where you were going up against some of the biggest, um, biggest agencies. We're going up against guys like yourselves and your novices and just real brand name independent agencies, but then also your Publicis and iProspect and some of the bigger network types as well. In the UK, you've got some of the best SEOs with 15, 20, 25 years experience. And I'm coming here with 18 months experience going, I'm going to just try and start a business against all of you guys. And so I learned pretty quick, like I really had to ramp up my SEO knowledge. I really had to ramp up just sales and put throwing myself out there and networking. And I I learned pretty quickly that when I started to hire the team, they couldn't split. You can't, you can't go up against some of the best agencies around and some of the most knowledgeable people around, also with great in-house teams as well that know their stuff.

Anthony Barone [00:08:21]:
So I was like, look, I'll take care of, when I got to about 2021, 2020, around then, and I started to hire some people, got to a point where I'm like, I can't split it. You're going to have to, I just want you to focus on SEO. We're going to focus on training, focus on deliverables, focus on being the best. That we can do and I'll, I'll burden that. I'll, I'll take that, which does lead to slower growth because, you know, we don't have a few minions out there doing all the networking. It's just me. Um, and we've grown every year and it's been great, but it does stymie growth compared to that model that we had in Australia because I was going up against better SEO specialists or better SEOs. And I'm going up against better sales, better salesmen and more experienced salesmen that have agency experience and the time and the equity.

Anthony Barone [00:09:05]:
So I'd made that call to just get the team to focus on SEO and I bore the, and I still do bear the sales on my shoulders.

Richard Hill [00:09:13]:
You're very much on the sales is the main role now then.

Anthony Barone [00:09:17]:
Yeah. Sales, marketing, growth. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:09:20]:
Yeah. Hence why we're probably having a chat.

Anthony Barone [00:09:24]:
Yeah, mate. 100%.

Richard Hill [00:09:26]:
100%. So I think, you know, we talk to a lot of SEOs, you know, and obviously we have an SEO agency behind the podcasts. And, um, you know, I think sales is, you know, if you can crack the sales, it's usually going from, you know, one man band, like you sort of say at the beginning, Harry, then Harry, Harry meets you and next thing you know, you change his life or maybe he's changed your life. Um, you know, then it's sort of maybe trying to get somebody in to do the sales, but you quite often the founder gets pulled into the sales and, you know, because it's a natural fit. Um, but then to try and scale, but you're lucky because there's different founders there, co-founders, et cetera. So for those that are listening. That are trying to sort of really scale the sales, what's some advice you give to those guys on sort of really scaling the sales and maybe getting out of the way of delivery if they're able to get out of the way of delivery?

Anthony Barone [00:10:12]:
Yeah, it always comes to the battle of people versus sales. Am I going to hire, um, do I need to bring in the sales first to then hire that person to take away that delivery? And people are always going to be scared to give away that delivery. Um, but if you want to grow and scale, you're going to have to. And this is where you focus on training education, communication, build up that team and bit by bit, give them that responsibility. Because there are good people out there and you don't want to get caught thinking that no one else can do what you do. So I had to give away the delivery. Sales is always, it's always, people always think it's a silver bullet. It's not.

Anthony Barone [00:10:46]:
What I focused on is industry partnerships, industry relationships, agency relationships. I focused on networking. I had no network. I knew no one when I came over here. And I joined some networks and I started B&I and that was a good learning experience. I think you're just going to have to put yourself out there and get to build your network. And because another thing, we only do SEO, so we're able to partner with other agencies. We're able to partner with, oh, you do ads? Cool.

Anthony Barone [00:11:11]:
Here you go. So we're able to build relationships with, like that. So build your network. Number one, build your network, get out there, get to meet people, get to meet great people, then you can, there's enough business to go around. You can all work together. And then the second would be if you're starting out, obviously have a great website. You're probably not going to have any budget for ads and things like that, but start to build and maybe post on socials yourself as a founder. Um, but you can't do it all.

Anthony Barone [00:11:38]:
So pick one or two channels, like probably your website, which in turn SEO, and then probably socials and then network, network, network and build those partnerships is what I would say.

Richard Hill [00:11:48]:
I think that specialism really helps, doesn't it? Like you said, you know, you're going to these events or you're looking for partners, but if you're just one strand, but you're very, very deep expertise, and then you meet somebody that does ads, does CRO, builds websites, design websites, Shopify guy, whatever it may be, and you're this pure thing, this pure thread, you know, there's not really much conflict of interest. So obviously you can refer to them, they can refer to you. So I think, you know, a lot of events, that seems to be the theme of a lot of agencies now, you know, us as well. I think we did about 25 events last year. We've got an event next week. We've got 100-odd brands coming in to see us next week. And I think, I've never been to your event, but I've heard from the sidelines that it is a special, special event. How did that come about?

Anthony Barone [00:12:34]:
Thank you, mate. So yeah, the originally started with a friend of mine called Stokely who runs Trinity Grandad Video Production and myself who were like, what's a cool event that we can do in Shortage and leverage this cool hipster area where there's a lot of creatives, but do something for agencies. I'd come from a B&I background, which has its place, but it's a bit more stuffy, boring, you know, structured, basically reporting. You know, you know, you know the drill. So like, what's a cool event that agencies from founder to junior, it doesn't matter if you do SEO, PPC, whatever, can have a good fun time, meet other agencies. And get to either just network. So we had some ones where we were just networking and beer pong, basically. Other ones where we had panels and individual speakers.

Anthony Barone [00:13:20]:
So we thought, um, Stokely came up with the name of Agency Social Club and we did about 3 of those in end of '23 and '24. And it was really, really good. We had a cool venue. Um, we did brands versus agencies. We had, um, so they all, like we call it the battle royale and had them go up going against each other.

Richard Hill [00:13:39]:
I think, Anthony, we might have actually stolen that idea from what I understand.

Anthony Barone [00:13:44]:
Yeah, it's good fun. Well, I met Carrie-Anne. I blame Carrie-Anne because she's the one that came to our, she came to our, one of our early agency social clubs and, you know, hey, take the idea. It's a good one.

Richard Hill [00:13:58]:
We have an event next Thursday and one of the panels is agency versus merchant, I think. Yeah. Retailer versus agent.

Anthony Barone [00:14:03]:
It's good fun. Bit of controversy, throw some things out there. So that's how, and then we met Shiv Shivalli who runs Shade of the Studio, an e-commerce consultancy with her partner Cassie. And they, we got to meet them and we're like, hey, there's not really a cool big brand commerce, a brand e-com retailer event in Shoreditch that isn't, that is, cause some of them like MadFest are like ridiculously expensive or it's too hoity-toity or like what's something cool that you know, even startups can come to, but like usually $1 million plus turnover Shopify brands, beauty, skincare, retail, men's fashion, women's fashion, cool brands can come to and it's not too salesy. They can actually chill. We can, we run panels, we run talks. They can actually get value. Shopify tech partners come down to sponsor.

Anthony Barone [00:14:57]:
They get to meet them. So we ran that thinking, And it was a massive effort. We did our first one in November of '24. And we've done 3 so far. We're looking at number 4 in June. And it's just a cool, and we change it and tweak it and improve it every time, but a cool event for about 200-odd brands to come down, have a good time in Shortage, half day, all taken care of, food, drinks. We've had fire breathers at some point, like that real fun entertainment, but also valuable.

Richard Hill [00:15:25]:
That sounds incredible.

Anthony Barone [00:15:26]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:15:27]:
That sounds like a lot of fun.

Anthony Barone [00:15:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's really—

Richard Hill [00:15:30]:
so how do you, you know, people that are maybe listening and thinking, well, you know, they want to attract brands to an event, you know, they, you know, they want to build their own maybe event, you know, and start something. Obviously getting brands, getting that to go, you know, to commit to a day, half day or so, and also getting sponsors, you know, getting those sponsors. Have you got any sort of tips, advice on how to sort of get the momentum going or starting with an event? Getting people to turn up and to sponsor?

Anthony Barone [00:15:58]:
Yeah, networking. Your network is always going to be one that you're going to rely on. So if you build that, that does help. I wouldn't go too big too quickly. So this is where you look at some smaller intimate events, 10 to 15 people roundtable, where it's a bit more, you know, 2, 3 hour lunch and to be more intimate. And then you can reach out to a Shopify tech partner who can reach out to a sponsor and go, hey, we've got, we're trying to bring X amount of CMOs or marketing managers to this cool venue in X place. Um, you can crowdsource the questions and the challenges from the actual people that you want to invite and then just foster the discussion. Don't be too salesy.

Anthony Barone [00:16:37]:
And then you split the cost with the sponsor. Um, the sponsor gets the leads list. They usually have one person in the room, you, or, you know, maybe your head of growth or whatever would be in the room. Not too salesy and fostering that. Ideally, you'd want to probably get one or two clients in there that already know you, that can vouch for you. So it's not too awkward. It's not just a bunch of randoms. Because they are challenging to run, but you probably start off with something small, a bit more cost effective.

Anthony Barone [00:17:00]:
You can split the costs. It's a bit easier to get 10 people in the room versus 50 or 100. And then you slowly build that up. Agency Social Club was a bit easier because we already knew a lot of the people in, in our agency world. But Dreamland was very hard and we all had to collaborate as the 4 of us to try and go to our strengths and promote our socials, promote on LinkedIn, hit up people that we've done previous events with, hit up clients, try and hit up some of those Shopify partners. And if you've got a good proposition, they're usually receptive to it because they're looking to get that leads list, get that, you know, they've got targets to hit too. So I would probably start off small and then build up rather than, unless you've got plenty of money and you've got a massive team and you're cool. But, um, start off small.

Richard Hill [00:17:45]:
Yeah, so maybe I could read, like you say, a retailer lunch or an agency lunch start, and then sort of building that network. So then maybe 2, 3, 4 of you can start an event together, partner together. What networks do you have? What networks do they have? You know, if they can get 10 brands, you can get 10 brands. That's a, that's a nice afternoon at a venue, 20 brands discussing XYZ, 2 or 3 speakers, a nice lunch. That's a nice little event, isn't it? If you're splitting it, splitting the costs exactly. Now maybe get a sponsor on the first one, maybe not, but It's quite, so I think obviously a lot of agencies are doing this now, I think, you know, I think, you know, I remember we probably started doing events maybe 15 years ago when we first started and it was exactly like, it'd be like, how can we get 8 people in a room and we managed to get 7 and it was like, yes, you know, but I think a lot more people are doing events, you know, literally some amazing, all very good events, probably got a similar network as yourself and What would you say about, obviously, ultimately you would like some brand, the brands to go to the, to the, to the events. Any tips on actually getting the brands there? You know, obviously you say networking, but sort of actually getting them to commit to the day and come for the day. What would you say about getting the brands there? Now I'm just going to pause this one for a second with a quick note from our sponsor, Aristo Sourcing.

Richard Hill [00:19:00]:
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Anthony Barone [00:19:28]:
That's the hard part. So it's always going to be free, so you're going to cop that cost. The, the hardest part is like Communication, following up with them, making sure you're getting the right person in the room and it's not too salesy. What people tend to think is, I'm going to start an event and it's going to bring me a heap of leads and I'm going to be flush. No, these are long-term relationship builders because no one likes to be sold to. So for us, it's always been constant check-ins, making sure you have, making sure you have a backup of a few people if people do drop out, outreaching to your clients. If you do partner, getting to, again, get together on that, making sure you reach out to your clients, reach out to people that you want to work with. Maybe you see a nice brand, you might reach out to a marketing exec there or a marketing manager there and say, hey, you know, shoot your shot really.

Anthony Barone [00:20:11]:
Um, but we've had success with current clients and then outreaching, but that does come with a caveat because look, there will be those tire kickers. There will be those people coming for a free lunch. So you always like, that's the lessons. Um, and you try, but building that network, doing some of these, starting off small and trying to get trust in people to sponsor or partner with. You try and mitigate, you try and mitigate that a bit.

Richard Hill [00:20:32]:
Trying to get a balance, isn't it? You sort of don't really want to say no to anybody, but same respect, it's nice to have a certain crowd there. Yeah, yeah, getting a balance. Well, yes, well, good luck with the next one. When is, when is the next one?

Anthony Barone [00:20:45]:
So Dreamland, we're going to be announcing that shortly, but June 11th will be Dreamland 4. Um, that's going to be the big London one. Um, and then we've got plans for, uh, smaller events peppered around. New York, Dubai, and another London event. Oh, wow.

Richard Hill [00:21:01]:
That sounds fabulous.

Anthony Barone [00:21:04]:
So a lot of hard work. So we'll see how that goes. That sounds fabulous.

Richard Hill [00:21:07]:
Just drop that in. If it is New York, if it is Dubai.

Anthony Barone [00:21:11]:
International, you know, I want to see those places. So why not start the video?

Richard Hill [00:21:14]:
Yeah, I don't blame you. I don't blame you.

Anthony Barone [00:21:15]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:17]:
So change of direction then. So I think, um, you know, you painted that picture of the start where it obviously is literally no handful of you now, just give it, give the guys a sort of a feel for the scale of the business now.

Anthony Barone [00:21:30]:
Yeah. So globally, um, we've got Melbourne, Sydney, uh, London, and now Atlanta. So Melbourne is now scaled up to 70 people across Melbourne and Sydney. I'm working, uh, one of the largest independent SEO specialist agencies. Um, here in the UK, I've got close to 20 people in, in Shoreditch. Carrying out those SEO services, working with, you know, mostly e-commerce and a bit of B2B. And then Atlanta, we started about a year ago with a friend of ours who's now a co-founder in Atlanta. And they've got 7 people, 30-odd clients because the American mentality to add it to business, the American way is just much more prevalent to getting things done.

Anthony Barone [00:22:12]:
And they want to grow, they want to scale while the UK is probably a bit more reserved and the economy hasn't exactly been the best over the past 3 years. So globally doing, doing well, but the US is really flying and Australia's got that 10-year, you know, reputation stronghold brand now. And the UK is, um, we're growing organically, you know, we're bootstrapped. We've got no external funding. We don't have anything like that. No, no partners. It's just us and growing that organically bit by bit, just trying to carve out a nice niche in that SME and the SME space for doing SEO for great brands and clients.

Richard Hill [00:22:48]:
And it is all e-com? Have you got, do you do a few other, other bits too?

Anthony Barone [00:22:53]:
Probably 60, 65% e-com just because again, not that we've intentionally, yeah, not that we've intentionally done like we are e-com only. It's just, again, the network I've built, the events that we've run, the people that I know, which is, and COVID as well, like the real growth. So, and then the rest of, you know, B2B service businesses and things like that. But yeah.

Richard Hill [00:23:12]:
So I'm, I'm very interested in, so. Obviously you've got 3 locations there. You know, you started, I assume you said Australia, hence that, you know, that sort of 10-year pedigree and that reputation and been able to, you know, that's sort of the rock, if you like. And then you've built these other locations and more recently America, you know, for agencies that are thinking, you know, and I hear this a lot and we've discussed it a few times in other episodes, sort of, right, we want to set up in the US, you know, we're an agency, UK-based, you know, doing X, Y, you know, got a good rep in the UK, but, you know, we've heard great things about the US and, you know, what advice advice would you say, would you give to agencies thinking of doing that and any sort of maybe a couple of key things and learnings that you guys have had?

Anthony Barone [00:23:55]:
Do your homework. I think we've seen in the agency world, um, and I don't know how they have gone, but I remember Rise at Seven have gone to the US a few years ago and a few others went to the US and we're naturally drawn to, or people are naturally drawn to New York, LA, Chicago, right? Big populations. I can crack it. These, it's 50 small countries over there and they all different and everyone's trying to hustle and the attitudes are different. You go to New York, mate, they'll risk everything just to make a dollar. It's different mentalities than the British and Australian mentalities. It just is the business. All of that's different and you've got to be prepared.

Anthony Barone [00:24:30]:
So I think doing the homework, doing the research, Harry himself a couple of years ago, went to New York, went to Boston, went to Chicago, went to LA, went to Miami. Went to North Carolina and then went to Atlanta and we settled on Atlanta and just the way we are and as Aussies and we're pretty chill. Like we don't take ourselves too seriously. That New York way, it's great for some people, but look, like we're not, we're not curing cancer here. We're doing SEO. So that sort of attitude is, it's a bit different, right? And the costs are exorbitant. The taxes are exorbitant. The New York wages are exorbitant.

Anthony Barone [00:25:05]:
American businesses are coming to the UK to take UK talent and get UK agencies to do stuff because it's so much cheaper and the quality is great. So we looked at all those places and we settled on Atlanta and Atlanta was up and coming, growing. A lot of the people that are leaving the traditional liberal states of California and New York and high taxes are going to Austin and going to Atlanta and going to those bit more friendly places. So great weather, great colleges, massive airport. That's a big connector. It's only 2 hours from New York.

Richard Hill [00:25:33]:
Yeah. Easy to get in there. Yeah.

Anthony Barone [00:25:35]:
Easy to get in there. It's gentrification is really happening quickly. Um, we had a bit of a network, um, as part of YPO and EO. So we got to meet some people there and we got to suss it out. We got to meet some people. We've got to make those connections. Plus the brand equity of Studio Hawk is much, much stronger than it is when I joined because I had no idea. Um, so we're much more prepared, set up, process, people, funds actually, um, to make that move to Atlanta and lower taxes, better weather, nicer people.

Anthony Barone [00:26:07]:
It's growing. They've got the World Cup there this year. So there's a lot more investment. Yeah. America's got the World Cup or America, Canada, Mexico got the World Cup and LA's got the Olympics in '28. So there's that general increase in investment, want to grow all of that stuff. So, and Atlanta probably, you know, people ask the question why there, but I went there in July for our global retreat just to suss it out. I'm like, okay, I get it.

Anthony Barone [00:26:31]:
There's the big brands there. A lot of the conglomerates like Oracle and Microsoft and QuickBooks, they have offices. In Atlanta. You've got a lot of money there. You've got a lot of business. You've got, and you've got that American attitude to want to grow and partner and build businesses and really strive. While it's a bit more conservative and let's be honest, it hasn't been the greatest for agencies in the past 3 years in the UK. So that's why we settled on Atlanta.

Anthony Barone [00:26:56]:
But I would say, do your research, try and suss out people, do a trip or two to different places. Try and think about who you are as people, how you do business, what are your attitudes, and then suss out those places and see, is it a fit for you? Are you going to move there? Do you have the right people to actually be the boots on the ground to grow that, that have that essence of who you are and then carry that into a new market? And then that clear service offering, because it's going to be saturated. It's America. There's heaps of people that do what you do. Um, but yeah, and then to be honest, they love the Australian accent. They love the British accent.

Richard Hill [00:27:30]:
Play a bit on that as well. We've got quite a few US clients. We haven't got Australian clients, but we've got quite a lot of a lot of, yeah, a lot of US, quite a few US clients and it's, yeah, it's good work, shall we say? Yeah, very good work.

Anthony Barone [00:27:42]:
Yeah. So do you then, I'm just going to go in there a little bit more.

Richard Hill [00:27:47]:
So, okay, you've decided on Atlanta and then obviously at the beginning of our chat, you said about new business, if you're sort of doing a similar thing out there, then doing, starting with smaller events out in Atlanta and just sort of building the network in Atlanta and going and speaking at different events and so forth around the US. That type of thing for Atlanta?

Anthony Barone [00:28:05]:
100%. So the co-founder, yeah, so the co-founder there, Sophie, the SEO community isn't as strong as I would say the UK, like in terms of the level of talent. It's just, it's just not, there are some good SEO agencies out there. So what the goal is, is to partner with other bigger SEO agencies, partner with smaller paid ads or social media company, social media companies. We're working in a cool coworking space there that does have event facilities plus other businesses. So it's the same logic. Meet people, hit the tarmac, hit the conversations, hit the coffees, and then run smaller events with other— I think we're doing one with a larger SEO agency in Atlanta just to start the ball rolling.

Richard Hill [00:28:47]:
I saw, I think I, well, I know it. And I saw Sophie do a talk actually in Thailand back in November, obviously not Atlanta, but in Thailand, in Chiang Mai. Yeah, I was there. And yeah, yeah, yeah. I realized that as I, before I was coming on, I was like, Studio Hawk, I sure saw somebody from Studio Hawk talk at some Um, and then, and it just so happens that one of my ex-colleagues used to work with Sophie as well, actually, another agency. So small world.

Anthony Barone [00:29:10]:
There you go. Yeah. Now Sophie's awesome. And just doing more, again, that's another thing. If you can get some speaking events, if you can do, do bits and pieces and suss it out, great. You're seen as the authority. So more of that.

Richard Hill [00:29:20]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony Barone [00:29:21]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:29:22]:
Okay. So we've got 3 locations. We've now got, you know, over 100 plus people. You know, how do you keep that sort of agency culture alive? Huge team over 2, over 3 locations, obviously probably a few remote people, I'm guessing amongst that as well.

Anthony Barone [00:29:39]:
What do you sort of do to support that sort of high performing team? So for us in the UK, everyone's, everyone's in the office. So the hardest part, we're a bit smaller. The hardest part is trying to continually follow your core values. And as you get to a bigger agency like Australia, there's probably going to be a bit more churn because you're a much more established business and people do their 2, 3 years and then they continue on. That's life. But for me, I've kept a pretty tight crew. We've got a longstanding crew that have been with us for years. And I love to see that because we can keep people for a long time and they can grow into leadership positions and develop.

Anthony Barone [00:30:12]:
I think for me, it's following those, following that core values of being strong on that. If people don't fit in that, um, what is it? There's a couple of quotes. It's like, hire fast, fire faster. And I think as you grow and scale and you develop your confidence in your experience, you get better and better at that. But I would say follow your core values. And I like the office and I've intentionally, I fell into Shortish and I've stayed in Shortish. And I've done that intentionally because it is a cool area. It's a creative area, but it's also easy for everyone to get to.

Anthony Barone [00:30:43]:
We're in a cool coworking space here and people love to break up their day. There's cool bars, there's cool restaurants, there's cool team things we can do. And I think post-COVID we've seen people, yes, the remote work works and yes, the outsource works and you can pick and choose how that works for the business. But for me, I just like to be in the office. I like to be around the people. I think to build a functional—

Richard Hill [00:31:04]:
That's the same for everybody, is that in the shortage, everybody is in 5 days.

Anthony Barone [00:31:08]:
Yeah. Oh no, no, 5 days. No, I'm in 5 days because I'm useless at home. We did start off with 5 days and then as the trust and knowledge grew within the team, We've went down to 4 days and now we're 3 and 2, which is a nice balance. So Monday, Monday and Friday at home. Yeah. Tuesday to Thursday in the office, but it's optional. If people want to come in 5 days, they come in and join you for 5 days.

Anthony Barone [00:31:29]:
But I like a bit of balance.

Richard Hill [00:31:31]:
We're identical. Yeah. Tuesday, Tuesday, Thursday is in, but then the odd person may be depending on where they're based and so forth. And then Monday, Friday is a bit of a ghost town, but some people do come in depending on what's going in. Yeah. And we're bang in the center of Lincoln.

Anthony Barone [00:31:45]:
So.

Richard Hill [00:31:46]:
Yeah, it's, I think, um, yeah, I just love the office. I love it.

Anthony Barone [00:31:50]:
I love being in, love the vibe, you know, good community.

Richard Hill [00:31:53]:
We're in a, it sounds very similar actually. I would imagine yours is way cooler being in Shoreditch though.

Anthony Barone [00:31:58]:
Come visit, come visit. Um, but yeah, that's, that's what I would say is like, follow the core values. I like the office. There's always a balance, but that's how we were built. I grew up in the office environment in Australia. I know a lot of people started agencies. When they became freelance in COVID and it was easier to reduce your overheads to just do a remote. But if you're fully remote, you are no different to another bubble.

Anthony Barone [00:32:20]:
You as the boss are no different to any other bubble on a screen. And that's what we saw with the great resignation of '22, '23. You were no different. People would just job hop because they could get 5, 10, 15 grand more in the same job. And you're just another bubble on a screen. So that's where the culture, the team, learning,, from others and being able to hang out, make relationships. Like I still talk to people that I had, in old jobs now, 10 years later, cause we had that time together. So, but you know, everyone's different.

Anthony Barone [00:32:50]:
Every business is different. Some businesses are built remote first and that works for them. Awesome. Um, we've come to a bit of a balance, which I like. And I think we'll stick with that, with that balance. Australia is the same at 3 and 2. Um, and I think the US is similar.

Richard Hill [00:33:06]:
Similar, yeah, yeah. Do you find, like, when obviously you're in a nice co-working space, you've got your, I guess, your space, and then obviously other businesses in the co-working space, and then you obviously got a whole, as you said, network there. But when people are coming in, you know, clients are coming in, potential new, um, team members are coming in, it's like, oh yeah, oh yeah, this is pretty cool, I want to, I want to work here, I want to work with these guys sort of thing. It helps, doesn't it, I guess?

Anthony Barone [00:33:29]:
Yeah, it's very buzzy. Like it's a buzzy office. It's an old, it's an old warehouse in the heart of Shoreditch and it's a creative agency that runs it and there's about 100 spots in here and it's filled in with PR and other smaller creative agencies and animation and all that. But when they come in here, it's just something different. It's not a sanitized, um, fora type operation. It's a bit rough and ready. It's cool. They run cool events.

Anthony Barone [00:33:55]:
Um, when they see it, they see the lights and they see the plants and all this is real, but it does make a difference because if, look, if you're going to be spending 8 hours a day for 3 days a week, you want to be able to be in a nice environment where you enjoy coming in. The commute's not too bad. You've got great options around you. If you want to, if you want to hang out after work, pretty much your oyster here, mate. You got, you got a fair few options and that's what I like about it.

Richard Hill [00:34:19]:
Yeah, it sounds pretty cool. Sounds like it's, um, Yeah, I need to have a little trip. I like going to Mad Fest. I've been to Mad Fest the last 3 years now, and that's a cool vibe, isn't it?

Anthony Barone [00:34:30]:
Obviously. Yeah, we're a 5-minute walk from Brick Lane. Yeah, it's around the corner from us.

Richard Hill [00:34:34]:
Oh, Brick Lane. I must have walked up and down there about 20 times last year, just looking at it, going into about 4 curry houses in one night almost.

Anthony Barone [00:34:42]:
Yeah, you got Bagel Bake, you got the curry house, you got the vintage stores, you got— it's a good spot.

Richard Hill [00:34:48]:
Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So obviously you're completely niche, you know, as in, well, nailed down on the SEO side of things. And that's what, you know, you're known as an SEO agency. Obviously AI, we can, we can, we won't go too far on the AI side, but obviously as an SEO agency, you know, things have changed considerably or the, you know, there's a lot more to consider with different LLMs, you know, AI mode, you know, how to be seen in, in the different LLMs and so forth. How has that sort of changed your offer? How has that changed the way you think as an agency?

Anthony Barone [00:35:25]:
I love it. I think it's a massive opportunity for SEO agencies because once people get through the shiny toy syndrome and the FOMO of not knowing what the hell's going on, they'll realize that great SEO helps to get into the LLMs and AI at this current stage. So for me, I think it's a massive opportunity for people to walk walk through to SEO by the AI door because they're getting questioned like, or we're getting questions like, I want to rank on AI. It's like, yeah, you've got an absolutely terrible website and you've got no presence anywhere. Don't worry about, you don't need a Ferrari right now. You need a Toyota. Just get your basics right. So for me, it's an, exactly.

Anthony Barone [00:36:03]:
It's a massive opportunity for us. And I think a lot of people with the hyperbole of, yeah, SEO is dead. Every time everyone said that, it's absolute balderdash. And because they don't know what the hell they're talking about, I think it's a massive opportunity for SEO agencies. I think for great SEO agencies like yourselves and a lot of us out there, you're fine. You, it's an open opportunity to open one, learn new skills, two, break away a little bit from the shackles that Google have got and open up search instead of just being so Google focused, which it has for 25 years. And look, Google's a trillion dollar massive company. It's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Anthony Barone [00:36:40]:
But adding a few, adding the, adding OpenAI or Perplexity or Claude or social search, it's opening up brands to more opportunities to attract more people and agencies to open up either different service offerings or force them to learn. And if you don't learn, well, you're going to be stuck in that sort of way. So I think it's a massive opportunity for us, but the problem for agencies like us is fighting through the acronyms and the noise and the balderdash of people trying to sell a tool or sell a course or GEO or AI, EO, or this or that. And, um, which is a doggone song. It is. It's Old MacDonald and people are trying to sell the farm to a lot of people. And, and you know what, people have been burned and, and then they'll realize, oh, I don't need GEO right now. You basically need to get some technical SEO, clean up your collection pages and start blocking.

Richard Hill [00:37:27]:
You need good SEO, which happens to be pretty close to what LLM GEO SEO is. Is there maybe a few tweaks that and that and slightly different, I guess, for example, different types of content, maybe different LLMs prefer or the way that things are laid out and so forth, but the fundamentals are just do bloody good work.

Anthony Barone [00:37:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like with, with Google bringing in, uh, the universal commerce protocol and people are worried, oh, but it's website's going to be dead. How is your website going to be dead? What's Google going to look at? Google's going to look at your website to then put you in AI mode, to then put you, yes, agents might be making those purchases. But if your website's terrible, you're never going to get that agent to make that purchase for you anyway. So this is where I think people will go through the learnings and realize when they cut their SEO budgets and everything dies, they come back to you and me and they say, oh, can I rank on AI? It's like, yeah. So I think, look, it's always, we're in this every day.

Anthony Barone [00:38:26]:
We're reading this stuff, our team's reading it. Your average Joe running a business. Doesn't know marketing like we know it. So it'll take some time for your, for your mum and dads to, to get to that point. And unfortunately, and I feel sorry, and I understand it's hard for brands when it comes to marketing because it's a competitive space. They've got so many channels to find people on. There's so much, there's only so much budget that can go around, and it's picking and choosing where to spend that budget and where to focus that time. So I appreciate they're not going to be across every marketing channel, what I can do for them, but I think marketers in-house will have to start to understand from a first principles perspective, just the top level, what these things can do and can they do it themselves? Will they hire in-house for it? Or can they do their research on good agencies to then get a, sign a good agency that does that for them? That's how I see it.

Anthony Barone [00:39:18]:
That's how I see it.

Richard Hill [00:39:20]:
Yeah, it's very exciting, isn't it? It's like when there's a big change in the industry, if you just, you know, there's quite often a lot of panic and a lot of scaremongering, which there is now, you know, very much so. You don't need SEO anymore. It's so easy. It's like, well, good luck with that.

Anthony Barone [00:39:34]:
Have fun. Hey, good luck, mate. I'll check on Companies House when that company goes into administration and give you a call and see how that's going.

Richard Hill [00:39:43]:
Yeah, it's so easy, isn't it? You know, all this content now, I can just get it built and whack it on my site. I don't need a content team either. It's just, oh, don't need anything really. I love that.

Anthony Barone [00:39:53]:
I love that example of the content.

Richard Hill [00:39:55]:
But yeah, we've got Shopify on tomorrow actually talking about the Universal Protocol. Protocol, sorry. So that's going to be, that's very exciting as well, isn't it? Obviously connecting everything. And then I think ChatGPT announced about 3 days ago, they're going to be ads coming, which we obviously we expected. So that's obviously you're not an ads agency, but again, in terms of just an opportunity to just understand, you know, and get in the mix, see, you know, as an agency listening, if you're an ads agency, that's an opportunity. It might not be one that You know, you might, there's not one that maybe, you know, there's going to be massive demand straight away, but it starts conversations, doesn't it? You know, and that's where, how do you understand those new things, those new platforms, how they work, explore them, become a thought leader in that area. And then as and when these things do develop, which no doubt they will, these, these LLMs have got to be funded somehow. I know they've got some subscriptions, but there's an awful lot of free accounts out there they need paying for, don't they?

Anthony Barone [00:40:47]:
So OpenAI can't exactly burn the cash at the rate that they're going. So we'll see. And you know, that's what I like about it. There's a lot of things happening, but again, you know, this is where agencies, like you said, are going to have to make that call. We're going to have to learn something new. Brands are going to be like, should I put my hard-earned profits into ChatGPT shopping? You know, something that brings me 1% of traffic, should I spend money on it? Maybe, maybe not, depending on where you're at as a business. And this is where focusing on the business goals and what actually moves the needle and understanding how these marketing channels are supposed to work and what they do, then you can, you know, budget accordingly. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:41:24]:
Well, it's been a pleasure, Anthony. I think we're nearly there. A couple of last little questions. Um, so what's next for Studio Hawk? What's, uh, next 12 months? Have you got any sort of exciting projects you're working on? Obviously you've got US.

Anthony Barone [00:41:38]:
I guess that's a pretty big chunk. I think it's just consolidating. We're not going to be, oh, As far as I'm aware, we're not going to be opening up any new offices, but you never know. But no, for the next 12 months, it'll be just continuing for us in the UK, continue to build a reputation in the community, continue to run great events, continue to scale up our team, grow the Studio Orc name organically in the UK. Australia is just consolidating their position, continue to build that foundation and build it stronger and stronger. And then as you grow and grow, there's more more and more working parts and overheads that you have to deal with. And US is just in growth mode. So for us, it's growth mode, marketing, events.

Anthony Barone [00:42:16]:
People get sick of seeing my face on the LinkedIn and the socials and the events, but bad luck. That's the name of the game. And continuing to improve our service quality, continuing to improve our knowledge and trying to make our service as great as we can and partner with great people. We continue to meet more people, just keep doing it.

Richard Hill [00:42:35]:
More of the same good stuff.

Anthony Barone [00:42:37]:
More of the same, more quality, more of the same. More of you.

Richard Hill [00:42:41]:
Your face everywhere, basically.

Anthony Barone [00:42:43]:
Yeah, unfortunately, that's, that's what people are going to see more of. But, um, well done.

Richard Hill [00:42:48]:
Yeah, that's an amazing story. I mean, is it 8 years from the beginning, from scratch? 3 locations, obviously hundreds and hundreds of brands, you know, brilliant. Obviously that sort of community you're building, so having fun while you're doing it, you know, building that community, meeting some cool people, that is the way to do it. It's been a pleasure having a chat, Anthony. Thank you for your time.

Anthony Barone [00:43:07]:
Yeah, thank you for your time, Richard, mate. Appreciate it. And, uh, great to get get the story out there and have a bit of a chat.

Richard Hill [00:43:13]:
Yeah, well, I like to finish every episode with a book or resource recommendation. You know, anything you would recommend to our agency followers, listeners?

Anthony Barone [00:43:22]:
Uh, one of the books that I like to give to every person that starts at Studio Hawk is a book called Ryan Holiday, which is Ego Is the Enemy. And it's a nice easy read which details through different anecdotes of different coaches or politicians or famous people How ego is not, uh, is the enemy, but not in the typical sense of I'm better than you. There is ego, there's different forms of ego that we don't think about. So, and that's one of our core values here is humble hawk. So Ego Is the Enemy, um, by Ryan Holiday, who's, you know, into talks about stoicism and things like that. That is a really good book that I like to, um, I like to get for the team, for new team members. Brilliant.

Richard Hill [00:43:59]:
We'll hook that up, um, in the show notes. For those that want to find out more about you, more about Steel Hawk, what's the best way to do that?

Anthony Barone [00:44:08]:
Uh, always, uh, LinkedIn. So you can find me on Anthony Brown on LinkedIn, uh, studiohawk.co.uk if you want to have a browse on the website. Um, and just always up for a chat if people got any questions, people want to hang out and they find themselves in East London. Uh, anything west of Farringdon Station's too far for me, sorry. If, uh, if they're in London and they want to hang out, I'm always, always up for a chat.

Richard Hill [00:44:32]:
And then we've got, was it Dreamland on the 11th of June for those that—

Anthony Barone [00:44:35]:
11th of June at the moment. Yeah, 100%. We'll announce that properly and all of that, but exclusive.

Richard Hill [00:44:41]:
We'll keep it on the down low for now then.

Anthony Barone [00:44:43]:
We'll wait for you guys to— all good. But yeah, June 11th. I'll put it out on LinkedIn in 10 minutes. Don't worry. That's all right.

Richard Hill [00:44:50]:
Well, thanks for coming on the show. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time.

Anthony Barone [00:44:54]:
Thank you, Richard.

Richard Hill [00:44:58]:
If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.